If you wish to use processing in the sub, then it should be done first prior to running MultEQ. I don't think you will get much benefit by applying a single parametric band cut and certainly would not recommend adding a parametric boost. Probably best to leave that knob at 0.
Sub Equalizer Connections (page 10 of the setup manual for Audyssey Sub Equalizer) are confusing. The diagram show everything and does not explain what not to hook up if you have the Audyssey Pro Kit. I have done this 2x now and still get lost. I have Audyssey Sub EQ and Integra DHC 9.9 with Pro insalled. I got the Pro Kit to do it all myself and a new diargam of hookups using the Pro Kit would be helpful to those who are not professional installers. When running the Sub EQ do I still have to connect 1a to 1b? And when running the Pro in Integra, do I still leave this cable hooked up?
If you are using the Audyssey Pro kit for both the Sub Equalizer and the Integra then you can ignore anything that has to do with the consumer mic. There is no mic pass-through connection needed and no need to connect 1a to 1b. That is only needed for those that are running the built-in room correction in the AVR (not Audyssey Pro).
If I have 2 subs, and only 1 output on the AVR, could i use the sub equalizer to integrate both subs into the HT? (One sub will be in the front, while the other will be in the back.)
Yes, that is the preferred method even if you have two sub outputs on the AVR.
is there any difference (performance-wise) between the audyssey and svs sub equalizer?
The algorithms and hardware used are identical. The Audyssey processor requires the MultEQ Pro Installer kit (sold separately). It also allows you to set up two subs in two different rooms. There is no difference in performance.
I have to agree with Bill that the connections for the Audyssey sub eq on page 10 are confusing. One more question Chris. Do I need to connect the sub eq (SAT) to the CENTER channel on my AVR. Item #3 on page 11? Also, I spoke to Installer support at Audyssey today and they told me that I can calibrate my subwoofer separately without being connected to my AVR. Can you tell me how to do this?
Luke in Tech Support can help walk you through these steps.
I own 2 subwoofers. One is in the front right corner and other is in the back left corner.
Will any of the multieqxt AVRs EQ each sub individually?
What I mean is, can the multieqxt EQ 2 subs?
Yes, if the AVR with MultEQ XT provides individual control of the two subwoofers then MultEQ XT will create filters for each sub separately.
Ok thank you.
So it filters for each sub seperately. However, does it consider each sub then working together?
My dilemma is - should I upgrade my reciever or just get for instance, an dedicated sub EQ like the SVS AS EQ1 or would a new AVR serve my purpose plus HDMI 1.4 etc.
Perhaps you can further assist me. Can you point me in direction of an AVR which has MultiEQ XT and the dual sub EQ feature?
No, it doesn't consider the subs together. If you want to do that, then we recommend using a single sub output and a y-cord to your subs. Of course, then you won't be getting the benefit of individual time and level alignment of the subs. To get the best of both worlds you will need to move to an external Sub Equalizer.
I own 3 subs attached to 3 sub inputs on a Denon AVP-A1HDCI.
Two of subs sitting next to the front B&W 800's (Velodyne Digital Drive 15's) have a mic menu calibration system. The other sub is in the rear corner of the room (an older Velodyne HGS 18). It was used as an LFE sub when I had my Lexicon MC12.
With the new AVP what is the best way to prepare these subs for an Audssey calibration? With the AVP I have them all of them set to LFE+Main.
If you wish to use the calibration systems in any of the subs, you should do that first before running Audyssey. Please be aware that digital processing in the subs introduces additional signal delay. So, when you run MultEQ the reported delays/distances for such subs will be longer than the physical distance. This is normal and is part of the correction that MultEQ performs to make sure that signals from all speakers and subs are arriving at the main listening position at the same time.
Audyssey recommends sending the same signal to all three subs. This can be achieved with y-cords out of one sub output on the AVP-A1HDCI or by setting the Subwoofer mode to "Mix".
It is not a good idea to use the LFE+Main mode. That mode sends the bass to both the subs and the speakers and often leads to improper responses in the overlap region. We recommend to always set the subs in LFE mode in the pre-pro or AVR.
Using the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, I have three subs attached to the 3 sub inputs on the receiver. They are in the 3SP Mix mode.
The receiver does not give me the option to turn OFF LFE+Main.
The chooses for that button are: Selectable items
LFE–THX or LFE+Main
How do I disengage this option?
You should select LFE-THX.
My question is about choosing the subwoofer crossover. I have a Paradigm PDR-12(direct input) which can be set between 50hz-150hz. My front Paradigm Phantom v2's are 55 Hz - 20 kHz and a low frequency extension of 40 Hz, so what would I set my sub crossover at on the 608? I would appreciate any help.
There is no such thing as a "sub crossover". A crossover consists of two parts: (1) a highpass filter that sends the higher frequency content to the speaker and (2) a lowpass filter that sends the lower frequency content to the sub. So, when you set a crossover for each of your speakers (say, at 60 Hz) the content above 60 Hz goes to the speakers and the content below goes to the sub.
Unfortunately, there is a frequency knob on subwoofers. That is only half of a crossover. It is only a lowpass filter. Very often it has the wrong slope and so it is not recommended to use it. It is there for legacy 2-ch gear that has no built-in bass management. It's best to turn it all the way up to the highest frequency it allows and leave it there always.
As to what crossover to set for your speaker/sub combination, I would start with 80 Hz.
I used to have my crossover set to 80 Hz on my receiver, I recently decided to lower it to 60 Hz so that the fronts and center speakers take on more bass. Do you think that was wise to do? Should I put back to 80 Hz and have more sent to the sub? What do you think?
My Home theatre is setup my multi-purpose room which is square in dimensions, and I had to add another sub to help even out the bass in the room. Unfotunately they are 2 different subs (one Onkyo, and one Polk), and are at different distances from the listening sweet spot (this is due to the nature of the room and how the furniture is setup).
My current Onkyo 577 is hooked up to these 2 subs using a Y cable and calibrated using 2EQ, but I'm looking to upgrade to a better 7.2 receiver with MultiEQ that can apply sub freq corrections to improve the experience. Would the latest Denon 2311 or Onkyo 708 receivers calibrate each sub seperately and apply individual corrections, or would both subs be calibrated together?
If they're going to be calibrated together, then would you suggest that I need to first run Audyssey with one sub connected at a time and get them to the same db levels by tweaking volume controls on the sub, then run finally Audyssey MultiEQ with both of them connected together ?
Thanks! Appreciate your responses.
@Mauro Lowering the xover will send less content to the sub where the MultEQ filters have 8x more resolution. Also, MultEQ will not apply correction to the main speakers below the roll off point that it measured. So, I would not recommend lowering it.
@Vivek You will get better results by using the Audyssey Sub EQ HT function found in newer models. The two subs are first aligned in time and level and then corrected by MultEQ as "one". This gives better results that applying individual correction to each sub. For a list of new AVRs with Sub EQ HT please check here.
hi chris i recently added 2 subwoofer to my 7.1 set up, my subwoofer has a digital eq on it that has three setting. flat,punch, and depth i ran the audessy with the flat setting a few times i got this setting. it sounds good but im wondering if i should do some more tweeking. the distance setting is 30ft, with a +6db settings. now my setting is half the the distance from my sitting area 15ft, and the volume on both my subs are set at -29 to me this setting is not right what do you think? my subs are klipsch rw12
The reason for the longer distance is because the processing in your sub adds delay to the signal. MultEQ sees that and adjusts for it so that the signal arrives at the same time as the other speakers. You should leave it as found. The volume setting is also made so that the sub plays at the same level as the other speakers. This is how systems are set up in the mixing room. If you have a preference for more bass that is higher than reference then you can change it, but you will no longer be listening to the content the way it was mixed.
So what about the eq on the subwoofer settings should i run the audyssey with flat, punch , or depth? also i thought that it was a good idea to get the audyessy to set the subwoofer gain between -3db to +3db?
I have some spare channels available on my ASE. Am I better off using a y-cable on the output of the ASE to EQ 2 subs, or put the y-cable on the sub output of the AVR and EQ the subs individually on discrete ASE channels?
You are better off putting a y-cord on the output of the Sound EQ and pinging the subs together as "one". Try to set the volume control on each sub to the same position so they play at the same level as each other.
I've got a few sub-related puzzles to solve:
1) Currently I have one, big expensive sub with the left wide speaker sitting on top of it. Because of the sub's size-there's only one place I can put it in the room and stay married. I was considering purchasing a second sub (I have a new Onkyo 3008) and was wondering what I gain with it. There are a lot of recommendations out there for a two-sub system.
2) After a slight furniture rearrangement, I re-ran Audyssey and also changed the sub settings (changed the low pass filter to By-pass (not sure this does anything with low level inputs) and there is a knob for changing the "crispness" of the bass which I fiddled with. Surprisingly, the result was awful---I have, it seems, a lack of lows on my main speakers and the sound is somewhat annoying with female singers and horns. Before - it sounded great. I ran Audyssey once more with a similar result. I'll try a third time but with more mic positions (Iused 4-5 above) and if it is still sounding tinny - what's next? Fiddle with the sub klnobs again?
3) In the current issue of Home Theater, the author suggests running Audyssey eq and then checking the results with a Radio Shack dB meter and a tape measure and adjusting accordingly. I did this and the Audyssey readings were fairly good, so I left them alone. I question this advice as it seems counterintuitive. He also suggests a trial and error approach to sub placement before running Audyssey for the loud, crisp bass position. This too seems odd, as I'd expect the trial and error results without Audyssey filters to be tainted. What do you think?
I have no idea what the Flat, Punch and Depth settings do on your sub. I would hope that Flat is just that and would recommend going with it. As for the sib trim showing up between ±3 dB, that's one of those internet myths that is going around. That level adjustment is just a relative number that makes sure your sub is playing at the same level as the other speakers. It will depend on where you set the analog volume control on the back of your sub.
1) There are two main benefits that two subs give you. The first is greatly improved low frequency headroom. Depending on the size of your room (and any adjacent connected spaces) this can help you play the subs at reference levels. The second benefit is that you will get a smoother bass response if you drive the room modes from two different points. This takes some experimentation with placement, but the results are generally better. The Sub EQ HT algorithm in the 3008 lets you then equalize the two subs for a proper blend.
2) Subwoofer controls should be avoided. Setting the lowpass filter to bypass is a good thing because otherwise that filter interferes with proper bass management in the AVR. All other knobs should not be used and they will do more harm then good as you found out. It is critical to use all 8 available measurement positions as shown in the diagram, even if you only have 1 listening seat. The algorithm needs to collect all the data it can from your room.
3) Yes, this "advice" is a little outdated. For example, the processing in many subs can't be turned off and it adds delay. If you just measure with a tape measure you will set the distance incorrectly. Audyssey measures the signal delay instead and compensates for the delay in the sub. The sub placement advice is not bad. Starting with a better response will give you better final results. The problem is: how will you know what you are starting with? Can't be done by ear...
Chris, Thanks for the great commentary on sub-woofers. I also have the Klipsch RW-12d and didn't understand the settings. Your comments were a great help. The default factory settings appear to be correct for running the microphone calibration. The sub allows for saving three presets, so I saved these factory defaults to the "Movie" preset. I'll most likely tweak the sub down for the "Music" preset and down further for the "Night" preset. A setting that was being questioned by ryan was an EQ Mode for Flat, Punch and Depth. The manual states that “Punch” setting emphasizes the 60Hz region while the “Depth” setting boosts the 30Hz range. Flat (default) defeats, i.e. disables, the EQ, so the assumption is to leave set to Flat in order to leave the audio untouched. Another setting that is explained in the manual is "Phase". I assume I should just follow the instructions. The default is 0 degrees. Any thoughts on this?
“Phase” - This screen is used to adjust the subwoofer’s acoustic
phase to match that of your main speakers. Use the Left/Right
cursor keys to adjust the subwoofer’s phase from 0° to 180°.
The proper setting of this control is highly dependant on room
acoustics and the position of your subwoofer in the room. After
setting the volume and lowpass controls set the phase to 0° and
listen to a recording with a prominent, repeating bass line in your
intended listening position. Repeat this process with the 180°
setting and use the setting that yields the greatest amount of
bass output. If neither of these settings is better than the other
experiment with intermediate settings. From this screen press the
down or up cursor key to access other control settings.
Hi John, If your goal is to calibrate your home theater to the same conditions used during the mix then the Punch and Depth settings have no place in that. They are intended for those who want to "remix" the content and add elements not there in the original.
Phase is also not useful in subwoofers because it only makes adjustments at one frequency (that they conveniently don't mention in the manual). It's best left at 0°.
Chris - I have a Denon AVR 791 and Definitive Technology ProCinema 800 speakers. I am using the LFE input on the sub. The manufactures directions have me putting the variable low pass crossover in the 2 o'clock position between 95 and 150. I am not sure if this is supposed to be turned completely up or not if I am using the LFE.
The crossover function is best performed in the AVR so you should set the knob to the highest frequency and keep it out of the way. Actually, it's not a crossover that the knob controls. It's just a lowpass filter that is there for people with legacy gear that doesn't have modern bass management. A modern AVR doesn't need that filter on the sub.
Chris - Thanks for the quick reply and all of the very helpful information on here.
This sort of picks up on John Walshaw's question .. sort of. Some have had success tweaking the sub channel distance to achieve a smoother blend between sub and mains. The one example I know of first hand had three subs run on one sub channel on the pre/pro and a huge dip was made fairly flat with this technique.
Does MultEQ consider distance for smoothing the splice, or just sets distances based on the detection process and then EQ the splice region as best it can?
Ooops, no edit ...
The sub channel distance was manipulated after setting up Audyssey. The dip was removed at the MLP (and very nearby); I do not know if he looked at what effect that had across the entire seating area.
MultEQ sets the distances (actually the delays) based on the detection. The assumption is that equidistant speakers and sub(s) produce a smooth blend. The question is where is that blend measured? In a single point measurement after calibration, that may not be as evident...
My set up is Onkyo 606 receiver, bose 301 front speakers, Accusound 200 watts center speaker, jamo sub 200 as subwoofer ,jamo cube speakers as suround and rear surround.
When I do auto set-up with Audyssey couple of times and run it again it seems like I had lost the sound of my sub woofer. I still got power with my sub and I tried to used another cable for the sub but still can't get a sound from my sub.
Your help is very much appreciated....
Hi, Does Onkyo set your front speakers to Full Range after Audyssey is finished? If it does, then that means "don't send bass to the subwoofer". You have to make sure they are not set to Full Range by selecting a crossover frequency for the speakers. Unfortunately Audyssey is not allowed to make the decision about when speakers are Full Range to avoid this confusion...
I recently set up Multi Eq Pro on my Denon 4810 and made a big difference in the highs and the sound was overall much cleaner than the regular in-built multi xt. So I think it was worth the investment for the Pro setup. This was a family room with high-ceiling and open spaces.
Do you think that getting the Sub Eq will make a further difference to the audio quality? I have a velodyne DD-12 sub that has its own parametric equalizer.
Hi Subu, It's almost impossible to predict the improvements without measuring your room. The main benefit of the Sub EQ is that it blends two subwoofers to give you an improvement over equalizing each one separately.
Need your advise. I recently upgraded my HT system with Denon's AVR and PMA - A100 units along with a JL audio Fathom f112 sub. The one thing I kept from my old system was my MK MX-105 subwoofer.
I left the MK sub on my system under the assumption that it would be properly integrated into it with the use of Audyssey's MultEQ XT 32 found on my Denon AVR.
The sound coming out my system is a marked improvement over what I had before for both music and movies, I do however find that when playing movies with high LFE content the sound tends to get too "muddy" and I am wondering if this has to do with the use of the different subs.
I have followed pretty closely all sub recommendation placements and setup guides found here and on various places on the internet (AVS forum for example). Here are my configs: LPF for LFE at 80Hz (did this based on instructions from the JL sub owners manual), crossover freq at 60Hz for both front and center speakers, LPF on subwoofers themselves are turned off.
My question to you. Am I right by assuming that MultEQ XT 32 would integrated these two subs properly? I have observed that if I change the phase on the MK sub from 0 to 180 the bass becomes much more powerful with a lot more punch (done after MultEQ equalization), if I leave both at 0degrees I definitely can tell the difference in bass. I know it is recommended that you always leave the sub phase at 0degrees so I am a little puzzled as to why the difference in sound.
Appreciate your thoughts and advise. The specs for each sub are below for your review.
MK MX-105 specs: dual 12" drivers (push pull); power 125 watts RMS; freq response 20 - 200 Hz +- 2dB
JL f112 specs: single sealed 12" driver; power 1500 watts RMS short-term; frequency response (anechoic) 21 - 119 Hz (+1.5 dB)
First let's start with the simple stuff: the LPF of the LFE should ALWAYS be set to 120 Hz in the AVR. Content in the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content is authored up to 120 Hz. Any other setting is just plain wrong. Unfortunately many in the industry (including the AVR makers themselves) don't fully understand this setting. Frankly, it should not even be an adjustable setting at all. It has nothing to do with bass management...
Now regarding the sub blending. Let's not confuse "more powerful/louder" with better. The purpose of equalization is to produce a smooth response in the bass that matches the smoothed response of the main speakers. That's reference. If you have a preference for more/louder bass that's fine, but it's not going to be achieved through Audyssey. The difference you are hearing is expected: you are changing the acoustical summation of the two subs when you flip the phase on one of them. That's not how Audyssey measured them. If this happens to produce a peak at a certain frequency then it will sound louder there.
Thanks for your quick response Chris,
Didn't realize that's what occurred when changing the phase in one of them, that is probably not a good thing and will make sure both phases are at 0. I will also switch the LPF to 120Hz and rerun Audyssey.
Based on the sub specs for the MK and JL, do you think that I am limiting myself by using both (or I should say, limiting the JL sub). I did try using just the JL and then running the Audissey equalization with just the one sub, however I felt I lost something when I did that so I went back to using the MK. Perfect world would be for me to use another JL f112, but funds do not permit that at the moment so I am trying to use what I have and the MK is still in good shape.
Just wondering what your thoughts were on that.
No need to rerun the calibration. All AVR internal settings are ignored when you run it, so it's just a matter of not messing with it later.
I don't think you are limiting your system with the two subs. They are not really all that different and driving the low frequencies in the room from more than one point has significant benefits.
Josh, I believe you mean Onkyo SC-PR5508. Since that product has the Audyssey Sub EQ HT functionality you don't have to use an external splitter. My comment was for products that have only one sub output or simply copy the content to a second output. Sub EQ HT was designed to ping each sub separately at first, to find the proper distance and level adjustment between the two. Then after applying the relative distance and level corrections, it pings them together to create the MultEQ correction filters for the combined acoustical response.
I would like to be able to setup Audyssey Multi Eq Pro in my system by myself using the setup kit. Do I need to be an authorized dealer to be able to do this? The kit is available for puschase but looks like you need a dealer code to get into the PRO software. The PRO setup seems to be very sensitive to speaker or furniture placement changes.
Hi Subu, You need a MultEQ Pro enabled AVR. Please contact email@example.com for information on how to purchase the kit.
I have the Denon 4810 and have set up the Multi Eq pro earlier. I had to go through an Authorized Audyssey installer to do this. I would like to do this myself so every time I change the speaker position, I do not need to call the installer to do this for me. I know that I need to purchase the kit to do this. In addition, I will need to use the PRO software. From what I heard, the access to use the PRO software is given only to dealers. Is this true?
Please contact firstname.lastname@example.org. They can answer these questions for you. If you purchase the kit, it will include the microphone and the necessary software. You will also have to purchase a license key for your AVR. That can be done on the Audyssey website once you register your kit serial number with our database.
It sounds like Marantz is setting your speakers to Large. Is that the case? It's a bad idea because it means: don't send bass to the sub. Please take a look here for more of my thoughts on this:
The sub mode in the AVR should always be LFE and never LFE+Main because that duplicates the bass and causes boomy sound. Please read here for more on sub settings:
Sub distance measures the physical distance and the signal delay that is caused by the filters in the sub:
The distance is always calculated from the first mic position--not from the AVR. What matters is where you are seated and that's where the mic should be placed first.
Audyssey does NOT set speakers to Large or Small. The AVR does. We recommend to ALWAYS set speakers to Small after calibration is finished for the reasons described in the link above.
I have a Onkyo-TX-NR509 with Jamo 650 SUB. The knobs on the sub are labeled Cut off frequency (Hx), Phase (Degrees), Boundary Gain Compensation (???) and then there's master volume.
My main question is, am I supposed to just leave the volume knob half way and then run Audyssey? I see you mentioned that, but does that mean any future adjustments are done through the receiver and the volume knob forever stays constant? If you could also comment on Boundary Gain Compensation and how I might use that, I'd appreciate it!
The setting of the sub volume knob doesn't matter as long as MultEQ doesn't come up with a trim setting of –12 dB for the AVR. If that happens then you are at the limit of the AVR adjustment and you don't know if more level cut is needed to bring the sub level to the required reference setting. Any other trim level setting is fine. Once you set the volume control on the sub it's best not to touch it. If you want to make personal preference level adjustments to the sub level then you can make these in the AVR menu.
BGC is intended to compensate for the bass boost that happens when a sub is placed near walls or corners. It's a fixed correction that doesn't really know where your sub is and how far from the walls it is located. My suggestion is to leave it off and let MultEQ take care of the needed compensation.
I have just purchased a Onkyo TX SR608 AV receiver and I have 2 subwoofers. 2 different model subs. Both are working and when tested in Audyssey 2EQ, I can feel bass coming from both subs.
When looking at the multiEQ audyssey software via a youtube recording, when the chirping begins and the onscreen icons are displaying the speakers that are detected, I notice that the my 2EQ Audyssey software does NOT display that I have 2 subs, but does push the bass to both. It appears that the mutliEQ version detects two subs and displays it on the screen as having 2 sub icons along with the other speakers that are detected.
Is my second sub being setup/detected properly? Does the 2EQ version show a second sub icon like in the multiEQ setup?
Audyssey is not in charge of sending bass to your subs. That is the job of the AVR bass management system. Some AVRs allow independent control of the level and delay in each sub and others simply copy the signal to both subs (essentially an internal y-cord). That's what you have in your AVR. There is no way for Audyssey to ping then separately because the AVR doesn't treat them as two individual subs. The best you can do in this situation is to set their level knobs to the be the same and, if possible, place the subs so that they are at equal distances from the central listening position.
i have hsu uls-15 suwboofer like to know how much is this correct that subwoofer level in avr should be -3db to +3db
and no matter what i do i still hear where sub sits or u can say i can hear the direction of the bass from right side of the sound where it place
so is 2 subwoofer helps in localization is it true that single sub always shows it location
I have AAD M-Series 5.1 speaker set with Onkyo TX-SR 707 AVR. I have set the crossover in the AVR at 80Hz, which seems to sound OK and balanced with the front speakers woofers. Subwoofer "low level" line in is connected to AVR subwoofer line out with a subwoofer cable (see attached picture). The question I have is regarding the crossover knob on the back of the sub: which position should it be set to after Audyssey room correction setup when playing audio material to make sure there's no interference with AVR crossover setting? Is there, in fact, any interference no matter which position the knob is set to, given that the crossover is already set in the AVR and, presumably, this setting sort of deactivates the subwoofer crossover knob given that there's a direct connection of subwoofer cable to "low level" line in on the sub?
Your kind help is much appreciated,
The lowpass filter knob on the subwoofer should be permanently set to the highest frequency it allows. This should be done prior to running MultEQ.
Thanks for your prompt reply, I've re-run the MultEQ with the highest frequency setting of lowpass filter knob and with the phase knob set to 0 degrees as per your basic recommendations and now the sound is just right, so, THANKS A MILLION for your kind advice and putting a stop to my tormenting search of acoustical peace of mind! :-)
Hi Chris, I ran Audyssesy Auto Setup for a 5.1 system and I have mixed feelings about the results. I am pleased with the overall spatial effects of the surround sound, but I am not too happy with the volume of dialogue. Before running Audyssey, dialogue was much louder for a given volume setting than after. Now I have to raise the volume to about 70% of maximum to hear dialogue at the same level. My settings are as follows:
Front 40Hz, Centre 40Hz, Surround 60HZ
FL -5.0dB, C -6.5dB, FR -5.5dB, SR -4.0dB, SL -4.0dB, Sub -12.0dB
From what I have read in the forum, the Sub channel level may be an issue, but I'm not sure. Thanks for any assistance.
Hello Chris, I am getting some weird playback issues with a new sub that I just installed. Marantz AV7005 with both subs ran off of a y cable. I did the Audyssey calibration per your post on the top of the this thread. First up I have noticed that while one sub will sound like a low rumble, the other sub sounds like it is considerably higher in pitch (on the initial test tone).
I have done multiple tests and one of the subs is "bottoming out" with certain scenes after calibration. The only way I can get the sub to not do this is to turn all Audyssey processing off. While it is a fix, I wanted room correction!
What are my options here.
First, it sounds like the sub settings are different. The one with the higher pitch must have the filter setting on the back set to a higher frequency than the other one.
Are the subs very different in size? If not, then it's not a good idea to combine them because the filter created for the larger sub will likely overdrive the smaller sub. Remember, when y-cording both subs see the same filter.
Wow, that was fast. One sub is an older Paradigm Servo 15 that has no controls on the back. It sounds fine. The other sub is a new HSU ULS 15, this is the sub that has a really high pitched sound when running Audyssey test tones. I have tried different settings and it still sounds the same. Again, the paradigm sounds like a rumble and the HSU sounds like a pop almost.
I don't have to y-cord them, the AV7005 has separate sub outputs.
The separate outputs are internally y-corded. I'm not familiar with the Hsu. Does it have any controls on the back? Or perhaps the Paradigm has a built in lowpass filter? In either case, the two subs seem to have a different upper frequency extension and this makes them sound different during the test tones. That's not a bad thing. The bigger question is whether they are extending down to about the same frequency. As they are both 15" I would expect them to. Can you figure out which sub is bottoming out?
The HSU has controls on the back, the Paradigm does not. I have talked to someone at HSU and they believe that the Paradigm "rolls off the highs pretty quickly. It sounds like I have deeper bass after adding the Hsu. The Hsu is the sub that is bottoming out.
Why can I not go into the settings for Audyssey and look at what it is doing with the Sub? I check settings for all the other speakers, but not the sub.
Unfortunately Marantz decided not to show the subwoofer filter in their GUI. One thing to try is the Hsu by itself (no Paradigm connected). If the problem goes away, that means that the Paradigm was extending lower and the MultEQ filter created for that sub was also applied to the Hsu and causing it to over extend.
What controls does the Hsu have and how are they set?
I will try that. I would think that the HSU would extend lower than the Paradigm, but I could be wrong.
The Hsu has
"volume" set at around 11 o'clock
Crossover (which is turned off)
ULF trim (ultra low frequency roll off goes from 16hz to 50hz. It is set on 16hz.
It could also be that the 16 Hz is a little optimistic. I would move it up a bit if the first test above still exhibits the issue.
Sorry for missing your post earlier. It sounds like you may have Dynamic Volume engaged. The purpose of that technology is to let you raise the volume of the dialog to where you prefer it and then it makes sure that nothing gets too soft or too loud, automatically.
Thanks for the help Chris, I could never get the issue dialed out unless I just turned Audyssey off completely.
I did pick up an SVS Eq1 today and have messed around with it a little bit. It seems like a very easy process. My question is, without a remote for the unit, do you just leave it on all the time???
Thank you! (repeat as many times as you've said speakers should be set to small)
No seriously, thank you Chris for all your help and suggestions and for taking the time to respond to all these comments and questions.
You are most welcome Fahd.
Hey Chris, sorry for all of the questions and thanks for the help. I have been messing around with sub placement with my two subs. I can get the "after" graph to be somewhat flat, but I get a 10db suckout at 20hz that I cannot get rid of. Why would EQ1 not boost that signal at 20hz? Can I just go with it and then run MultiEQ on my AV7005 and that will bump the 20hz 10db? Do you have any better suggestion?
The max boost MultEQ will ever apply is 9 dB. If this is a true "infinite" suckout then putting any energy into a boost is rather futile. The only way to address it is to move the sub.
Hey Chris, I "fixed" the problem by running the two subs as "discrete" subs with the two outputs on the AV7005 (even though it is the same signal). I am sure that is not the ideal way to fix this. For some reason either sub would eq perfectly at the current positions, but if you ran them together they would have the huge 20hz suckout. I then ran odyssey Multieq xt on my processor over that. Do you think this will be a problem?
Hi Chris, Just a quick note to say how impressed I am with both your product and your customer service.. I can't think of any other instance of both those being so good in any other company.
In regards to MultiEQ XT - I have just set up a new system: Denon AVR1912, Wharedale fronts and B&W centre and rear.. and a Velodyne 12" sub. I know they don't match - long story..
My room is 35' long and about 25' wide with a hard floor and brick walls. We have a ~25' cathedral ceiling which doesnt help! We rent, I am hoping the next place will be more HT friendly!
Anyway, I never expected I would achieve much from the new home theatre given the conditions.. But, after following the directions in the manual and reading your blogs (Setting speakers to small makes sense, I don't get why others miss the point with this!), my setup sounds amazing, i mean.. REALLY good.. It shouldnt - not in this room. Yet, your technology has done it's job perfectly, as advertised.
I wanted to congratulate you on such an innovative product and refreshing support.. Keep up the great work!
I hope this doesnt get lost in the noise, I wasnt sure where to post this, so here was as good a place as any!
I really appreciate your message. Thanks for taking the time to write and please feel free to come back any time should any questions arise.
I don't think this is a problem the way you have it set up. Not sure exactly why it's better, but as the old audio saying goes: "if it sounds right, it _is_ right".
Firstly, thanks again for your previous subwoofer setup recommendations, the low frequency response of my system generally sounds right, however, one of the music tracks out of quite a few I've listened to when checking bass performance had a short (like 2 seconds) bass peak when I listened to it in my listening position, whereas that peak wasn't there when I listened to the same track on my kitchen stereo system and in portable CD player headphones. Due to furniture placement and room space limitations my listening position has to be practically up against the back wall, which, as I understand, is exposed to boundary gain effect which, as I assume, has caused that low frequency peak. In my Onkyo AVR I do have a Boundary Gain Compensation feature for THX certified subwoofers but my subwoofer is not THX certified and even if I try to use that feature it doesn't really compensate boundary gain to the extent that I can tell the difference. In this connection, the question I have is does Audyssey room correction setup or other Audyssey fine tuning features provide for any compensation or elimination of such boundary gain effect? If not, are there any other ways to fix general boundary gain related issues?
Thanks so much!
I would not expect that portable CD player headphones would reproduce bass. To do that you need to have a very good seal and that's not generally possible with portable headphones. So, I would not recommend making any sound quality judgements based on that.
The BG Compensation is a simple bass cut switch at a fixed frequency. If your sub happens to exhibit a peak at that frequency then it will have the right effect. If not (based on where it's placed) then it will cut at the wrong frequency. Generally, it's better to let MultEQ measure and produce the appropriate cuts where needed for your sub and room. The measurement looks at boundary and standing wave issues.
Measuring against the back wall will result in a bass cut not peak. The bass there is overly emphasized and so the mic will measure that and tell the filters to cut. For that reason we recommend placing the mic at least 18" from the back wall even if that means it's slightly forward of the seated ear location.
Thanks for you prompt as ever reply! Actually, I got Philips SHP 8900 headphones with the frequency range of 5Hz to 30 Khz and they reproduce bass just great, anyway, I understand it perfectly with regard to THX, so I turned it off anyway because the vast majority of CDs I listened to don't exhibit any bass peaks and the only CD I heard that on so far was actually a pirated CD mastered from vinyl and I never encountered that issue on any other factory pressed legitimate CD so far. So, if I witness any other bass peaks on any legitimate CDs I will seriously think of re-running the MultEQ setup with the back from the wall distance you recommended rather than almost twice as long that I used,and if that would make a difference, I will let you know the results.
Thanks so much again,
I've listened to some other deep bass tracks and I came to the conclusion that it is a tone equalization issue, precisely stating I get occasional too harsh passages in the upper low frequency when they actually shouldn't be there, could it be a problem with my AAD M8-T speakers or is it a repetitive Audyssey MultEQ equalization error? Could it be caused by my AAD M-8T front speakers being placed too close to the wall (front speakers woofers are facing the walls and being in like, give or take just 1 foot away from it) - I had to place them like that due to room space limitations. I got a tiny room with the length of approx. 14.43 feet and width of approx. 7.21 feet and my front speakers and subwoofer are placed in the same line with subwoofer being to the right side of the front left speaker because there is front left speaker woofer facing the wall to the left side. Given the very small width of the room, when running MultEQ setup measurements, can I leave the mike at the same place without moving it for all the three measurement positions as the recommended 1 foot distance between the listening positions would make measurement results very controversial in this narrow kind of room? What should be the minimal distances from side walls? I have a couch in the middle of the room, could the bass response measurement inaccuracy be caused by the back of the couch partially obstructing the signal from the mike to the subwoofer, should the entire space of subwoofer speaker unobstructedly face the mike? After all, is it at all possible to achieve correct MultEQ room equalisation in this odd and tiny room?
Sorry it took me so long to explain,
It's not a MultEQ equalization error. We have data from thousands of systems that shows it working as expected. I'm afraid it's an issue of comparison. You are assuming that the headphones represent the true response and I doubt that this is the case. There is a tone in the headphones that is different from what you are hearing with a flattened response from your speakers.
MultEQ will measure any room--size doesn't matter. But, you have to follow the mic placement instructions here:
If you leave the mic in one spot you will get *much* worse results. The algorithm needs information from the listening area to perform its calculations.
Assuming I made a mistake when placing the mic during MultEQ correction setup and that caused unnecessary tone adjustments, I am going to re-run the MultEQ, but I still have questions about mic placement:
1) Can a speaker (including the subwoofer) partially obstructed with a piece of furniture cause the mic to measure inaccurately resulting in incorrect tone adjustment? Should I remove anything that may even slightly obstruct the mic signal sent to a speaker?
2) Is it OK to place a tripod on a couch, rather than on the floor?
3) If I follow the recommendation of observing at least 2 feet distance between measurement positions (which will be in the same line) should the minimum 18'' distance also apply to side walls?
4) The last measurement tip says: "Focus on the central listening area and avoid extreme positions such as the back wall or too far beyond the left and right speakers" - does this mean that I should place the mic in the center of the room even if my listening position is further back to the wall? "Too far beyond the left and right speakers" - what is the specific distance that's considered to be "too far beyond"?
Thanks a lot for your help, Chris
A speaker obstructed by furniture will most certainly give bad measurements. It's essential to have a clear path from the speaker to the mic.
Yes, it's fine to set the tripod on the couch.
Yes, it's a good idea to keep the minimum distance from the side walls as well.
No, "center of the listening area" is intended to mean the center of the area where the listeners sit. The mic should not be placed in positions that are outside the span of the front L and R speakers.
Thanks so much for getting back with the answers. I have re-run the MultEQ setup following all your recommendations (which also involved shifting some furniture) and now I think I got rid of those harsh bass peaks and overall sound got much clearer. Previously I didn't realize that correct placement of setup mic is itself a part of tone equalization process and even slight mic placement inaccuracy, like 1 inch or so, in terms of observing distances (especially the distance from back wall) can boost or cut bass dramatically - so I put the tripod with the mic on the couch exactly at the level of listeners' ears observing the minimum back wall distance you recommended and the 2 feet distance between the listening positions. It's a great pity that in their user manuals AVR manufacturers like Onkyo do not bother to provide specific mic placement details like minimum required wall distance and distance between measurement points, furthermore, let alone first time users, even a so called "professional installer" who was setting up my system didn't realize the importance of accurate mic placement and the effect it has on tone equalization and placed the mic as if its measurement location didn't matter at all, and that's really sad. Anyway, I'm quite satisfied with the sound so far, and thank you ever so much again for your detailed recommendations.
Hi Chris, I finished running Audyssey a few times, making volume adjustments on my subwoofer because the trim was set to -12dB on the initial Audyssey setup. I also carefully followed your guide for placing the sub and the setup microphone. I also read the various posts and discussions on this. Thanks for your help!
The end result is a sound that I am very pleased with! I list the channel levels and crossover frequencies below. Do you suggest any further adjustment?
(All speakers set to SMALL. LFE set to 120HZ.)
Chris - this is a superb forum.
For a sub-woofer which (like the BK XLS200) for example) has High and Low level inputs, is it advisable to use both? I have the Denon 4311.
It's not advisable to use both. You should use the low level (line level) inputs so that the crossover is properly performed in the AVR and not in the subwoofer as would most likely be the case with the speaker (high) level inputs.
OK - thanks Chris.
Is there any software reason why when Audyssey applies EQ cut/boast to the LFE/sub-woofer channel that it stops applying it below a particular frequency? I am using the Denon AVP-A1HDCI(A) pre-amp.
Relative to 75dB I have a wide -10dB dip in my room response centered on approximately 58Hz with a large broad peak of +10dB at 32Hz.
After running Audyssey several times using all eight locations there is no apparent correction applied after the first dip at 58Hz. I have checked this at all eight measurement positions. All that happens is that the 58Hz dip is reduced by approximately -6dB, then I measure no apparent changes in levels below this frequency.
Does Audyssey stop correcting when it cannot add enough boast to hit its target level?
Hi Chris, I have a Onkyo 3007 AVR conbined with 4 HSU ULS15 subs, one in each corner of the room. The Onkyo has two sub outputs and I have my two front subs on Sub1 and my two rear subs on Sub 2. I have been reading your notes on how to prepare the subs and room for running the audyssey program and have a couple of questions.
1)When working with the manufacturer, they had instructed me to make sure the subs are in phase with each other by starting with one, then adding a second while watching the sound level meter. flip the phase switch back and forth leaving it in a position that provides the highest sound level. Makes sense, but, as I like to run audyssey should I do this? And as I already have them set (2 are at 0 and two are at 180) is there a reason to reset to zero?
2) The comment above about the furniture in the way of the speakers, I ran audyssey by placing the mike in position 1 (the main seating area), if i sit in that seat, I cannot clearly see the fronts as the front row of seats slightly blocks the view. In order for the mic to have a clear line to the fronts I would have to put it 6 inches above where my head would be in that listening position. Is that the correct thing to do raise it above the ear position?
3) THe manufacturer of my subs stated as follows, " When you set the ULF trim to 16hz, the ULS Amplifier will use more electronic deep bass boost to extend the frequency response. So with the trim set to 16hz, Audyssey will need to use as little deep boost as possible. After runing Audyssey, in order to have higher headroom or a less deep sound, you can always manually turn the ULF trim knob higher. No need to rerun Audyssey after doing that." Can I get your input on that.
4) Many poeple on the net recommend running audyssey then zippin over it with a sound meter to adjust the sound levels for the main listening position. As I am mainly the only person in my theater, I have been running the 8 point audyssey and then putting a sound meter in the pprimary listening position to get the best results for my seat. Is this really neccessary and does it effect the room equalisation that your product does?
One final question Chris, from your standpoint, the AVR set the crossovers for the front and mains at 40, I have always changed those to 80 after running audyssey, is that correct from your standpoint? Again thanks in advance