DSX wide making music (in 5.1 movies) sound robotic/weird?

Hi, So I've set up my 7.1 surround according to audyssey specs. I've done the configuration using all 8 locations and the mic on a stand etc and now I have enabled the DSX wide setting and it's doing something very strange to my movies? Previously i used a other AVRs wide option and it just enabled the wide speakers, DSX seems to add a delay and a kind of robotic sound to music when it's played during a movie. Best examples of this are "500 days of summer" the entire film sounds like I'm sat in a echoey cave? You can actually hear the beats are slightly out of sync from the speakers! The best example of Thst is the top gun intro, it sounds dreadful? Have I don't so ething wrong here? When I disable it it sounds fantastic with the odyssey settings enabled, but as soon as DSX is enabled is sounds very strange, robotic, echoey and out of sync? As if I have the song playing from 2 devices and 1 is 100ms behind the other. Any advice on this, have I done something wrong?
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26 Comments

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Something else must be on that is interfering with DSX.  This is not normal operation.

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    Danh4

    My experience too - Some material sounds great, some sounds like a cave.

    Only thing I can think of is rerunning the calibration and get all 8 points (I only used 4 to get it running quickly), and check the angles with my laser pointer/protractor.

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    Danh4

    Hi - the re-calibration worked perfectly.   Getting all 8 measurements made a significant improvement.  Thanks!

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    Paddy

    Hi Chris,

    The hall effect has returned? Strangely nothing has changed in my setup except I noticed the wide issue was very apparent when using multi channel in.

    You can test this perfectly by using a PS3 ... And playing "Life's too short" episode 6 (I think... The one with sting" on the iplayer app (you will need to use a uk proxy I assume buy that won't be an issue I wouldn't expect)...

    Playing this content with DSX enabled makes it sound like a cheap "hall" effect has been enabled, it's truly awful? DTS content is perfect, but AC3 Dolby and multi channel input audio (PCM) sound absolutely dreadful...

    You can also hear this on pretty much all Dolby content~ disable DSX and all is well?

    Any ideas?

    Ps, I upgraded my iPad and still no paragraphs are registered when I use this site? Pressing return works When I type this on the screen... But when it's submitted it's a compete wall of text?

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    Paddy

    Tested again with PS3 HDMI PCM MULTI CHN and it's quite shockingly like a hall effect when playing a movie view PCM. Disable DSX and it's perfect, change to DTS and it's perfect... Went back to my old test of Top Gun and 500 days of summer (Dolby Versions) and there it is again... Like a cheap hall effect has been added...test top gun (intro) in DTS with a 7.1 wide setup then switch it to Dolby and listen to the intro again... It's out of sync from the wide speakers... I'm guessing my apx 250ms ... Very weird effect? Is DSX on,y for DTS movies? Please try it and let me know your opinion on that specific intro of that movie if you can.

    Thanks again,

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    Louie AL

    Yep ! same problem here , got the 5509 last week and after connecting to the ps3 started  up (Music Unlimeted) and the (Robotic/kinda electro Eco) effect played along with the music . not sure why it turns the sound like that

    will be greatly thankful for any input or solution =)

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    @Paddy: what model is your AVR?  

    @Louie: we will check the 5009, but it was certified to be working correctly.

    Are your Wide speakers at the required ±60° angles?  That should put them along the side walls.

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    Louie AL

    Thank you for the quick replay!

    not sure about 60° angles but they are facing around 30% at my listening position, the side walls are far away from the main speakers , also a good gap between the speakers and the backwall , maybe this picture will explain it better , sorry for the back quality of that pic =)

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    So you are not using Wides.  These look like Height speakers.  Anyway, the problem should not be there.  What else is turned on in the 5009?  They have many different modes (stadium, rock club, etc.).  These should NEVER be used.  They are very bad and can cause the kind of problems you are hearing.

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    Louie AL

    not using wides, on the 5509 I was using Audyssey dynamic EQ: on with Dolby PLIIx Music and its 7,1 the hights are off in that mode  , no other modes are up , i didnt see modes such as stadium, rock club on the 5509 , do i miss something ?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Now I am confused... Is Audyssey DSX on?  It seems that it's not if there are no Wides and the Heights are off.

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    Louie AL

    this is exactly how it is set uo during music playback

    Sound Program: off

    all speakers are on default bass and treble

    Dolby Volume : off

    Audyssey : music

    Dynamic EQ : on

    Dynamic vol and late night are off

    Listening mode : music - PLIIx Music

    DSX is on reference

    music optimizer : off

    speaker settings : normal , front high + front wide : No

    hope this will clear any confusion =)

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    If you have Front High + Front Wide = No then it is impossible to use DSX.  DSX creates content for Wides and Heights.  If they are off then you are not listening to DSX.  

    The problem you are having must be due to another reason.  The first place to start is with the 5009 firmware.  I recall that Onkyo released firmware upgrades shortly after the 5009 shipped.  Have you connected it to the internet and checked for any updates?  It's really important to do this periodically.

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    Louie AL

    yes front high + front wide are off , in the main DSX menue is dose show reference and i can actually move the db +/-

    it is connected to the internet all the time as i use home server to stream music to all devices

    i got the 5509 last week and the frimware update was the first thing i checked before i start do anything else and there was an update that i installed on the machine

    the thing that is confusing me is that if i selected front high + wide at NO then why DSX shows and can be controlled ,

    the attached small vid showes the exact setup and how DSX is active

    or at this link http://youtu.be/_gYT7ayZ0Z0

     

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    Paddy

    Hi Chris,

    My AVR is a 4311Ci with 7.2 Wides attached. All speakers are the same family, timber matched and sit at angles of apx 35 and 55 (give or take a degree or two) and are towed in to the listening area slightly just like the audyssey example suggests.

    Setup for audyssey completed perfectly, nothing seems out lf the ordinary, speaker trims were set to apx -2.5 all round, i have x-over at default 40/40/60 and dual subs are calibrated ok (albeit a tad quiet due to such low cross overs)

    All has been well until I let Multi channel PCM and DSX play together.... All I can say is that I have a perfect setup when using DTS, it sounds fine, DSX slightly reduces the centre channel volume in DTS movies when DSX is enabled, but it adds the wide effect perfectly... Play the same movie with a Dolby sound track (Top Gun is your best bet to notice this and 500 days of summer as both those intros sound appealing) and I have both DTS and Dolby versions of the soundtrack. When you switch between DSX with Dolby and DSX with DTS the difference is remarkable... The Dolby track sound cheap, out of sync, concert hall echo effect? Very bizarre. When the same movie is played in DTS with DSX it sounds completely different, it sounds fine?.. I currently set my AVR to Dynamic Eq on, dynamic volume eve, multi eq audyssey, DSX enabled, and I disable all Dolby, DSP effects on the AVR. It's as close to pure as possible, it's basically "pure" with DSX and audyssey enabled... E easy way to test this is to use a PS3 and manually set it to output DTS ONLY, then play a movie in DTS with DSX enabled... Now reconfigure the PS3 to allow multi channel PCM and Dolby and disable DTS and play the same movie in the same conditions and circumstances and environment and listen to difference, not only is it noticeable it actually ruins the film completely and makes it should like you have enabled a cheap hall effect. I can't stress enough for other members to test this with ANY movies thy own that have both Dolby and DTS soundtracks as you literally won't believe how bad it sounds. Basically for me, DSX does not work with any AC3 or DOLBY sound track but it works perfectly with DTS from the same bluray disc?... I have recently re-ran my audyssey with all 8 points and agan it perfect with DTS tracks but awful with Dolby. This is decently reproducible and I'm sure if you borrow a top gun bluray or hddvd with both ac3 and DTS tracks you will notice the difference and you won't like it, I'm not complaining, I'm just reporting what I believe to be a bug in the AVR or the DSX processing when Dolby tracks are detected... Any ideas? As currently, I'm having to disable it to watch my Dolby movies?...

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    Paddy

    Ps..
    Again, this is written on an iPad 1 using IOS 5.0.1 and I have pressed "return" on numerous occasions to set paragraphs... and yet still, it does not recognise them when I press "save comment"? Surly this can't be specifically me?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    That DSX slider controls the level of the Wides and Heights.

    Your video shows (at time 0:44) that you do have Heights enabled with a crossover of 50 Hz. 

    How many microphone positions have you used to run the MultEQ calibration? Hopefully you have used all 8 as shown here: http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Paddy,

    The offices are closed this week, but I will have our team check this next week.  It seems rather bizarre.  DSX doesn't "know" what the incoming encoded content is so it has no way of knowing if it's DTS or Dolby.  The content must be decoded first (in your case that is done in the PS3) and then passed to DSX.  

    I wonder if something is weird with the AC3 decoding on the PS3.  Is that the only source you have?

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    Louie AL

    Thanks Chris ! i ran 3 positions setup but i feel that i need to re-run all 8 , will do it very soon , also thank you for the link ! it will help me for sure , will get back if i will hear the same issue again

    Marry Christams and Happy new year

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    Paddy

    Hi Chris,

    I'm currently using a PS3 for bluray and a HTPC for my other media. The HTPC is an Nvidia GPU connected via HDMI bitstreaming to the AVR in which case the AVR will be doing the decoding and the same scenario is applicable. I've ripped by bluray of top gun to the HTPC and it's the same situation where upon DTS AND DSX sound fine, but DOLBY AND DSX sound way out of sync and as if I have enabled a "HALL" effect in the DSP or something (which I haven't of course). Top gun intro is perfect for testing this as it has AC3 and DTS on the bluray and you test them both easily.... I enable the Dolby soundtrack and then toggle DSX on and off and I can't stress enough at the damage this causes to the sound of the movie, it's unbelievable... Truly unbelievable? When you hear the top gun intro sound track and you toggle between DSX on/off you can plainly hear the echo/hall effect and the beats of the into music are way way off.... I'm going to try and capture the delay and upload a sample so you can hear it, but it's between .250 and half a second off at a guess.. I'll try upload and recorded sample to YouTube if I can for you to hear for yourself and hopefully advise on. Thanks again for helping out... Hope you had great holidays and are enjoying the festive period :)

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    Cavchameleon

    Hi Paddy (and Chris - Thanks for all your input here and at AVS). I just wanted to chime in on your issue with the Top Gun Bluray. I tested the disc on two systems to verify your findings on the difference with DTS vs Dolby. One of our systems (main media room) has a full DSX setup (11.1) with all matched speakers using the Denon A100 (same as the 4311ci) and the other one is a 5.1 system, Audyssey XT based (NAD T-785). Yes, there was a remarkable difference between the DTS vs the Dolby sound tracks, with the DTS having more detail, more bass, and just a lot more lively, on both systems (and even on the DSX system with DSX off - using it in a 5.1 mode). After playing back and forth on both systems (different bluray players, one is an OPPO BD83 and the other a Panasonic), I have come to the conclusion the difference has nothing to do with any of the equipment or with Audyssey. IMO, it is the way the disc was mastered (this will most likely true with other discs). I verified this with Audyssey off, and the same affect. This even is evident in another room based on a soundbar attached to a Denon 2311ci.

    Just a note, on the majority of movies we've played through the system with DSX on, there is no echo effect - pretty much sounds amazing (different for multi- channel music though - really material dependent).

    This from my observations in our setup. Hope this helps.

     

    Happy New Year All!!!

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    Ronni Sejrsen Hansen

    Hi

     

    Any soulutions to this problem?

     

    I have it with my Denon 4311 but did not have any problems on my old Onkyo TX-NR3008

     

    Regards

    Ronni

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Ronni,

    This has not been reproduced by us or by Denon and we have checked many times.

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    Ronni Sejrsen Hansen

    Ok...sorry to hear that. With me it is very distinct. Perhaps I need to see my Denon dealer about it then.

     

    Regards

    Ronni

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Yes, that would be the best thing to do.  A couple of things to check:

    1. Are you taking all 8 measurements in the listening area?

    2. Are the Wide speakers at ±60° (that should put them on the side walls)?

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    Ronni Sejrsen Hansen

    Yes they are 1.5 m from the screen wall on the sides. Angle between them is 100-110 degrees symmetrical from listening position.

    I just bought the Denon because it can handle 11.2 whereas the Onkyo "only" could 9.2. I use a Rotel-amp on preout on fronts, center and front wides.

    I have done calibration several times now (with one point and 8 points) and get the same result. It is hard to explain, but it sounds a bit like an echo, like speech is in a big room with hard surfaces.

    I had no problems with my previous receiver. Think I will contact the store and pehaps make them do a pro calibration.

    Thanks

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