Crossover frequency

I have an Onkyo TXNR807 receiver - Does Audyssey automatically set the crossover frequency or do I need to do that as part of the speaker setup.

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Audyssey doesn't set crossovers in any product. It finds the low frequency roll off point of your speakers and reports that to the AVR. Every manufacturer uses that information differently. In your product, speakers found to roll off below 40 Hz are set by Onkyo to Full Range (i.e. with no crossover to the sub). That means that bass will not be redirected to the sub. Audyssey recommends that if you have a sub you should set crossovers for all your speakers. I would suggest starting with 80 Hz. I wrote much more on this topic here: 

    http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/

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    Frank Hemmock

    I have an Onkyo HT-RC180 system. I have a question regarding the crossover frequency to use for my speakers. I have a Snell Basis 550 sub which I know should be set to 80hz since it is a THX certified sub. My question is what to set the crossover to for the Snell D7s, SR7s, and LCR7. According to their specs I see the crossovers as D7(400Hz / 2kHz), SR7(400Hz: 3kHz), LCR7(2kHz).

    None of these values can be chosen via the setup. My receiver allows Full Band, 40Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz, 80Hz(THX) (default), 90Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz,150Hz, 200Hz.

    When I run the calibration it seems to return values that do not match the specs. I understand from other articles on this forum that the calibration is not setting the actual crossover, it is only telling me what the low freq rolloff point is (I think I know what that means). If memory serves, it was returning 40 or 50 hz for some of the speakers.

    What is my best bet? Where should I start off setting the crossovers to? 80hz and work down from there?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    You shouldn't be setting any filter on the sub as it ends up interfering with proper bass management that is best done in the AVR.  The filters on the back of the sub should either be turned off or you should use an input that bypasses them.  Please take a look here for more subwoofer setup tips.

    The crossovers you see in the Snell spec sheet are already set for you in the speakers.  You don't get to play with those...  The only relevant crossover is between the speaker and the sub.  That is best set after measurement.  Although the system follows the THX spec, room conditions and placement may change the low frequency performance.  MultEQ will find the actual roll off point in your room for each speaker and pass that info to the AVR bass management system.  Alternatively, you can manually select 80 Hz in the AVR after MultEQ is finished.  All internal AVR settings are ignored when running the calibration so you will want to do this after it's done.

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    Frank Hemmock

    Thank you for the information. I think I found the missing piece.  Instead of paying attention to the crossover on the spec sheets, I think I need to look at the frequency response. For instance with the SR7 speakers, they have a frequency response of 80hz - 20khz. I take that to mean that any frequency under the 80hz will not be reproduced by the speaker. So the AVR should have the crossover frequency for that speaker set to 80hz so that 80hz and lower frequencies will be sent to the sub to be reproduced.

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    Rick

    How do I handle a Velodyne 3750 in the setup?  Should I leave the sub knob position at direct?  Onkyo 608, Polk RTI 4's

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Rick,

    Subwoofer setup tips before running Audyssey can be found here.  Yes, leave the sub on Direct, but please read the other recommendations as well.

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    Rick

    My Velodyne 3750 is connected to the receiver with a sub wire that has a splitter with 2 inputs on the sub end.  I was told this increases the subs output, perhaps that is why Audyssey sets the sub to -14?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Perhaps.  But, most likely because the volume control on the sub is set too high.

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    Sunil Kumar

    Dear Chris ,gone through your comments to other members impressed by your explanation.

    so through of sharing my concern.

     

    I have Onkyo NR-609 rec and SONY HCD RV900D 5.0 home theater ,am using 5.0 speakers to connect to NR-609,without sub woofer what cross over frequencies to be set to center ,rear and fronts.

    and my front L and R got 2 drivers and 1 twitter ,and there is option in the avr for the type of fronts normal or Bi-amp.what should i set.

    to output best Movie experience give some inputs how to improve the listening quality by using 5.0 Old sony speakers with nr-609.

     

    Thank you Chris

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Sunil, if you have no subwoofer then it is impossible to set a crossover for the front L and R speaker.  You can set a crossover for the other speakers (C and Surr).  If you do, then the content below the crossover frequency you set will be sent to the front L and R.  But, if all 5 of your speakers are identical then there is no benefit in doing that.  The best improvement will come by adding a subwoofer.  Then the bass below the crossover frequency will be sent to the sub.

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    Sunil Kumar

    Thank you Chris.

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    Rodrigo Abdalla

    I own an Integra DHC-80.2 surround processor and Bowers & Wilkins DB1 subwoofer and 804D2 speakers (with frequency range down to 38Hz). When I ran Audyssey MultEQ XT32, I was initially asked to set the subwoofer dB level down to 75dB, but even after reducing its sensivity, I was only able to reach 89dB. After the measurements, the processor made all adjustments and the subwoofer then measured 75dB. Besides, crossover frequency was set to 40Hz. Is this crossover frequency too close the 804D2 speakers limit? What are the implications of raising it up a notch (to 60Hz or THX reference 80Hz)? Should I reset the subwoofer sensitivity back up to reach THX level (109 db)? Thanks

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Rodrigo,

    The initial level check is to make sure that your subwoofer level is not set so high that the AVR will run out of level correction range.  It looks like everything is fine if the final measurement is 75 dB.

    It's OK to move the crossover to a higher frequency.

    The subwoofer level is set so that a –30 dBFS test signal (the noise in your AVR) measures 75 dB.  That means that the loudest peaks will be at 0 dBFS which is 75 dB + 30 dB = 105 dB.  If you turn the level up from what MultEQ found you will be above the required reference.  THX level is not 109 dB.  It is as I described above.

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    Giftsai

    My friends always believe and tell me that use full band for all speakers will give you the right thing from source. Sub woofer will work the right thing. Is that true? Thank yiu

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Yiu,
    Sorry, but your friends are totally wrong... If you set speakers to Full Band then no bass will go to the subwoofer except for the separate LFE track in 5.1 content. Please read the link in the first post of this thread to understand the reasons that Full Range is a terrible setting if you have a subwoofer.

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    Giftsai

    Thank you very much Chris. Now I use processor onkyo 5507 and set all speakers to 80 hz, LPF of LFE to 120 hz as your recomend. I use JL113 sub, I set LP frequency or cross over to 120 hz and turn LP filter off in JL Sub. Is it correct or any suggestions? I have not run audyssey. I set distance by actual measure. Am I correct? Thank you.

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    There is no point in making settings in the AVR prior to running Audyssey. All settings in the AVR are ignored when you run the calibration. The whole point of measuring is to find the right settings. So, you should first run Audyssey and then check the settings. If any speakers are set to Full Range change them to Small by setting a crossover. 80 Hz is always a good choice. 120 Hz for LFE lowpass is correct. The subwoofer distance should not be set to the physical distance because all subs have filters that add delay. Audyssey finds it and compensates and that looks like the sub is farther away. You should not change that.

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    Giftsai

    Thank you very much. I will run audyssey tonight and inform you the result.

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    Giftsai

    Last night, I run Audyssey already and changed speaker to small and LFE to 120 and do nothing with sub woofer, the result is really good. I can hear some sound that I never hear before. It's very nice. But I noticed that some bass in some Bluray Discs concert is lower and some Bluray Discs movie bass is boosted. How to deal with this problem or am I doing something wrong? Thank you.

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    Giftsai

    One more questions, after running Audyssey, Front LH and RH, Surround LH and RH also  different. Do I have to change to the same lever or let it be?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Audyssey is calibrating your speakers and subwoofers to reproduce the content as it was made.  There is no problem.  This is called Reference.  If you have a personal Preference for lower bass then you can turn down the subwoofer level in the AVR menu.  Audyssey can not predict your personal preference.

    The levels of each speaker are set so that their all play at the same level.  This is how the studios where the content is mixed are calibrated.  Every speaker has different sensitivity and the placement in the room changes the amount of adjustment that needs to be applied.  You should leave everything as Audyssey found it if you want reference calibration.

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    Giftsai

    Hi Chirs, I run again Audyssey last night I follow your all instructions and the result is perfectly right now. I really enjoy. Thank you very much.

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    Rickard L

    When MultEQ finds the low frequency roll off point of the speaker, what kind of intelligence is involved?

    It must be looking at some other criterias than the roll off point, or?

    If I do the 3 mandatory measurements from the same position in the middle of the listening area, the crossover gets set to 40Hz for my Front speakers.

    If I measure all 8 measurements covering the listening area, the crossover gets set to 150Hz.

    Since the measurement position used when it got set to 40Hz is also included in the 8 positions, it must "know" that the speaker produces sound at 40Hz, right?

    I think I have found one side of the couch where my Front Right speaker has a dip in the bass and I gather that MultEQ has found that dip too severe to be corrected and  that is why it sets it to 150Hz.. Does that sound reasonable?

    I have the bass port plugged on those speakers, remove it and I would get more bass. Would it influence the crossover decision if the speakers produced overall more bass below 150 to take the fight and correct the dip?

    By the way, I do have XT32 now.

     

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    The calculation of the roll off (frequency and slope) is based on all the measurements.  So, the results will vary depending on where you place the mic.  This is intentional because the low frequency response varies significantly as you move the mic.  The algorithm is trying to make the best choice by considering this variation.

    It's very likely that when you take the measurements in one position, there is a big peak in the response there that rolls off around 40 Hz.  

    Also remember that the AVR only allows you to set the crossover in pairs.  So, if one of the two front speakers rolls off higher then the selection will be made for that higher point for the pair.

    Removing the port plug will likely give you a bigger peak at the port tuning frequency and also less deep bass extension.  Typically this would be louder, but not deeper bass.

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    Rickard L

    Well, I would still call it a dip and not a roll off.

    Anyway, I

    1) changed the toe in of the suspect speaker, aimed pass the MLP,  and slightly towards the position where I measuered the dip,

    2) removed the bass plugs of the LCR speakers and

    3) widened the listening area 1-2 feet to the left of the "dip position" (which still was measured as well) and it changed my LR fronts from 150 to 90 and my center from 70 to 40. (LCR are the same kind/model of speakers)

    Too bad, I didn't have the time to do each change with 8 runs each to see what each change did but it will do for now! :-) 

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    Rickard L

    What is the best way to figure out the "optimal" crossover frequency to which I should raise the crossover to after Audyssey MultEQ XT32 setup? Run frequency sweeps with REW over the listening area and pick the frequency which produces the flattest response? Or RTA? Something else?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    The best way is to use the method included in MultEQ Pro that automatically checks multiple frequencies and proposes the one that gives the flattest response at the blend.  The second best way would be to average multiple sweeps as you mentioned.

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    Aubrey H

    Hello Chris, I am new to this forum and new to the Audyssey brand. I need a little help if you don't mind. I just purchased a Onkyo 709 a couple of days ago and did set up today. It doesn't sound right to me when I listen to Dolby HD & DTS-HD blu ray concerts, Dolby HD & DTSHD blu ray movies, or regular 5.1 directv programing.

    I have the 709 hooked with polk audio 6600 series speakers and polk powered SUB.

    My question is, when I do the MultiEQ set up with the mic, and the Audyssey sets my front speakers to 150HZ, and center to 40HZ, and surround back speaker to 150HZ, do I need to manually go into the menu and set the speakers back to 80HZ(THX)? The LPF, or LFE setting is 120 HZ. I don't have a setting for small speakers, or large through this 709 just HZ.

    Also, I noticed that the level calibration for the speakers were set really high after calibration. Like 12-13db. I guess I'm used to my older Onkyo 787 and more volume coming out of my center speaker than the new 709, where now most of the volume is coming out of the two front speakers, & back surround and very little out of the center on Dolby HD and DTS-HD

    I guess I need to do a re-calibration again. I just want every thing to sound right, but imo right now, it just doesn't sound right. Sounds un-natural.

    Like I said I'm new to the Audyssey brand, and maybe I didn't do the set up correctly.

    When I'm doing the setup again, should I put a box on my couch & chair to make the mic the level of my ear height, as I don't have a boom to use. Or does it matter that much? Fwiw. My back speaker are on stands and can be moved up to the couch or back two feet against the wall if this info helps?

    Chris, sorry for all of the questions, I just want to get it right. Thank you for your time and help.

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hi Aubrey,

    Onkyo doesn't use the term "Small".  But, when you set a crossover frequency that's what it means.  Your speakers are correctly set to "Small" and the bass below the crossover frequency is redirected to the sub.  

    I don't recommend changing the frequency to a lower value.  The whole point of measuring is to find what the speakers are doing in *your* room based on their placement.

    Please take a look here for tips on how to properly run MultEQ:  http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to

    The mic *must* be at ear level, but not with a box or stool.  A cheap camera tripod is the best way.  Also, don't place the mic close to the back wall--try to keep it at least 18" from there even if that means it's forward of the main listening position.

    Are all the speaker levels showing up at +12 dB?  That doesn't seem right.  Or is it just the center channel?  That would be an indication that something is wrong with that speaker.

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    Aubrey H

    Hello Chris, thank you for the reply.

    I did the whole test over this morning using all 8 seating positions as described in my Onkyo manual and on the Audyssey site.  3-1-2 on the couch, 4-5-6, about foot in front of the three seater couch, and positions 7-8 behind the coach. 

    I don't have a tripod so I used the Onkyo box that the receiver came in for the couch. I just sat the box in the middle of the couch, the mic sat flat and level and from what I measured was as close to ear level as possible. In front of my couch and in back, I used a metal stand that was ear level and two feet from the wall. I guess I could get a tripod, but I'm not sure if it would sit anymore flat/level than the box did.

    I guess my first attempt of doing the setup something was out of wack. maybe there was some noise, who knows. I know I only used like three positions instead of the full 8 and these were all taken in front of the couch. I know I should've followed directions the first time. lol

    My second attempt the DB's were much lower I think -3.0 & -3.5, but my speakers were still set at 150HZ for the satelites, 40HZ for my front speaker. LFE was 120HZ. I just wasn't sure if the satelites needed to be set at 80 HZ (THX) or left at what the Audyssey set them at 150 hz. I set them back at 80HZ before I left the house this morning and before I read your reply. Do I need to do the test over again, and the just leave everything the way the Audyssey sets it?

    Again thank you for your time and help.

     

     

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