Crossover frequency

I have an Onkyo TXNR807 receiver - Does Audyssey automatically set the crossover frequency or do I need to do that as part of the speaker setup.

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Aubrey,

    Unfortunately the box will cause high frequency reflections that can affect the measurements.  At some point I would highly recommend a cheap $5 tripod.  It's not a problem of flatness.  You need to make sure that no large reflecting surfaces are near the mic.

    It doesn't matter where you set the crossovers prior to taking the measurement.  These settings are ignored.  The whole point of measuring is to see what the speakers are actually doing (and not what they are theoretically capable of).  It's best to leave things as Audyssey finds them as that reflects the performance in your room.

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    Aubrey H

    Hello Chris, Thanks for clearing that up. I will pick up a tripod before I redo the MultiEQ test and whatever the Audyssey settings finds, I will stick with it..Let it do it's thing.  

    One last question. When I redo the test with a tripod, do I need to follow the MultEQ Steps 1-8 as shown in the Onkyo & Audyssey diagram?

    Just wanted to make sure before I redo everything, since I only have the one listening area on my couch. I guess it doesn't really matter if I only have two surround speakers and one back surround speaker does it doing this test?

    You've been very helpful, and I appreciate you taking the time with me on this matter.

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Aubrey,

    Yes, all available measurements should be used regardless of the number of listening positions.  The algorithm needs to collect as much data as possible.

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    Aubrey H

    Hello Chris,

    I found a tripod that I never used (in closet) after your last post telling me I needed one.  I used it, (1-8 steps) and whatever the Audyssey MultiEQ found from my speaker settings is where I left the settings. 

    What's new to me, is the sound from all of the speakers not just the center and front speakers.  With my older Onkyo 787, I  mostly heard the center speaker even after many adjustments to the other speakers. With the new Onkyo 709 and the Audyssey system it's like night and day from the older system. I hear all 6 speakers clearly now. Sounds great.

    It's going to make me add the 7th speaker to my system. LOL

    Thank you again for all of your help.

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    SankDaDevil

    Hi Chris,

    Lot of info here and very helpful.

    I have a rather peculiar issue. Last week I purchased Onkyo TX NR609 which has Audyssey 2EQ. I did multiple rounds of full calibrations but there are these issues that still persist:

    1. Audyssey reports the distances of my surrounds incorrectly. Both the surrounds are equi-distant from reference sitting position yet it reports the right one correctly at 3FT and left one at 8FT.

    2. Audyssey reports cross-over for my center and surrounds incorrectly from what is mentioned in the speaker manual. It sets it at 40Hz for both center/surrounds whereas it should be 75 for center and 80 for surrounds. I believe setting freq cross-over lower than the manufacturer specified values can hurt the speakers. Is it true?

    For now, I did venture out in to the settings of my AVR and set all values manually viz. the distances and freq cross-overs. Yet, I would like to know the advantage of using Audyssey with or without manual intervention and the reason why all values are being reported incorrectly?

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    Audyssey Labs

    The values are not being reported incorrectly.

    1.  Is the Left Surround facing an open room and the Right Surround a wall?  This can happen because the sound reaching the mic from these two conditions is quite different.  If you think there is a problem with it, then you can change the distance after the calibration is finished.  It's not a big part of what Audyssey does.  The most important part is the room correction filters and these are not affected by the distances.

    2. You shouldn't go with the paper specifications of the speakers.  Placing a speaker closer to a wall or corner will extend its lower frequency response.  That's the whole point of measuring: to find out what's going on in your room.  There is zero chance of hurting the speakers, but again, you can change to a higher frequency if you prefer.

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    SankDaDevil

    Thanks Chris. So what you intend to say is that the reported values are for reference only? In that case, how come filters are applied? From what I understand, Audssey relies on the data it captures to then appropriately apply its correctional filters. I still fail to understand the whole point. Can you please explain a bit more vividly?

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    Audyssey Labs

    Audyssey measures the delays, levels and roll off frequency of each speaker.  It stores those values in the Parameter Check menu so you can always refer to them even after you have made changes to these parameters.

    Audyssey also measures the acoustic response of each speaker and creates a correction filter.  That filter is not accessible by the user and is always running as long as you have Audyssey On.

    Any changes made to the delays, levels and crossovers will be applied in the settings menu of the AVR.  But, they will not show in the Audyssey Parameter Check menu because that always shows the originally found values.

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    SankDaDevil

    Ok. The "Parameter Check" menu that you are referring to is the one that is shown at the end of calibration process? I couldn't find any other reference for Audyssey measured values anywhere else on my AVR's menu system.

    I saw the values measured by Audyssey for approval at the end of calibration process and made changes to speaker distances/freq response right at this step before hitting the SAVE button.

    So it essentially presents two situations:

    1. I save the measured values as reported by Audyssey in the review screen and then proceed to modify speaker setup using my AVR's menu. This, if I understand correctly, wont affect the Audyssey curve. and

    2. I make changes in the review step at the end of calibration and hit SAVE "after" making changes to the measured values. This essentially would alter the Audyssey curve.

    Are the above two observations correct? If so, what would you advise should be the preferred mode of making changes to the Audyssey's reported data? Before saving or after saving?

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    Audyssey Labs

    Only #1 is possible.  You should make any desired changes to the delays, levels, and crossovers *after* saving the calibration.  

    Changes to the Audyssey room correction filters are not possible by the end user at any part of the process.

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    Sunil Kumar

    Hello Chris,

    i was registered for this discussion of cross over freq ,once i have raised query but i have been following up this thread.

    once thing i would like to appreciate ,how politely and how calmly you answer all quarries raised by hifi enthusiasts.

    Thank you for that.

     

    Regards

    Sunil Kumar

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    SankDaDevil

    So Chris, you are suggesting that I should SAVE the values as reported by Audyssey even though I know they are incorrect and should proceed to modify them only after SAVING using the AVR's normal menu?

    If you say that room correction filters can't be affected by user selection then how would my setting of distance/freq response before or after the act of SAVING affect it? If user action doesn't affect it then immaterial of if I make changes to reported values before saving it or after saving it shouldn't affect. Right?

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    SankDaDevil

    Sorry, but I am just trying to understand the Audyssey better so that I can handle it in a more matured manner to get the best out of my system. :)

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    Audyssey Labs

    I don't think the values are incorrect.  An asymmetry (wall on one side and not on the other) is more complex than simply pulling out the measuring tape.  So, my recommendation is to leave them as found.

    However, if you feel the need to change them then you can only do so after they are saved.  The interface in the AVR does not let you make changes before you save.

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    Alex0925

    Hi Chris,

    I guess it's a minor issue, but still I can't help but wonder: if Audyssey MultEQ setup, apart from other things, receives speaker specs input for optimal crossover settings, then how come that it sets my surround speakers crossover frequency at the value which is less than their lowest frequency (i.e. my surround speakers lowest frequency is 70Hz whereas MultEQ sets the crossover at 60Hz), this doesn't make sense to me. Any comments on that?

    Thanks a lot,

    Best regards,

    Alex

     

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Alex,

    The roll off frequency listed in the manual of the speakers does not take into account their placement.  Placement in a corner or near a wall extends the low frequency roll off. That's the whole point of measuring!

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    Alex0925

    Thanks for your reply, Chris

    I just wanted to make sure that it's OK that MultEQ setup set my center speaker (which is located in the center in between and at the level of the front left and right speakers, as it should) crossover at 100 Hz, given that according to the specs it can reproduce as low a frequency as 60 Hz. Should I leave the crossover setting as Audyssey set it or change it to the lowest possible frequency it can reproduce so that more bass is sent to the center speaker?

    Thanx so much,

    Best regards,

    Alex

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Alex,

    There is little benefit in moving the crossover to a lower frequency.  MultEQ will not apply any correction below the frequency it found to be the roll off.  The only way to change that is to move the speaker closer to the wall, but there's really no reason to.  The content below 100 Hz is properly directed to the subwoofer so nothing is lost.

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    Alex0925

    Thanks so much for the explanation, Chris!

    I'll leave it at 100 Hz then.

    Best regards,

    Alex

     

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    Steve Caliendo

    Hi Chris,
    In a recent post from Alex0925, he asked you about his center channel whose manual indicated a crossover setting of
    60Hz yet Audyssey determined that the crossover setting should be 100Hz. You said he should leave the setting where Audyssey found it because that is how the speaker is performing in that particular room. Plus, Audyssey would not apply any filters below the measured level, regardless of what the manual says.

    My question is this: If the general consensus is that humans can localize frequencies above 80Hz, wouldn't redirecting those frequencies, in this case 80Hz to 100Hz out of 60Hz to 100Hz, from the center channel to the sub, be noticed by the listener since the sub is typically placed in a different part of the room?

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Steve,

    80 Hz is not an absolute number.  It really varies from person to person and also depends on other things going on in the room (e.g. rattles and vibrations).  In any case, the benefit of room correction greatly outweighs the potential of some localization issues that may or may not arise in that narrow region.

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    Seth Slomovitz

    Hi,

    I am running setup for the first time.  I have a Denon AVR-1612 and Energy Micro Speakers.  I set the sub up as suggested and when I ran the setup it is putting all of the crossover settings at 200hz.  This doesn't seem right and most others are having the opposite issue where the crossover is too low.

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Seth,

    The manufacturer rates these at 150 Hz and that's under ideal conditions.  It's not surprising at all that Audyssey found them to roll off at 200 Hz.  The roll off will depend on what your room is doing and how far the speakers are from the walls.

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    Michael James

    What would cause Audyssey to set in-wall bipole surrounds at 150 Hz???

    Went thru the Audyssey XT setup on my Onkyo PR-SC885P. Everything went well but it set my surrounds at 150 Hz, which seems really high. They are Atlantic Technologies IWTS-30SR-P. Could I have the wires crossed in back? (or would Audessey pick it up) I ran them as Bipoles during the setup and left them as Bipole after.

    I went thru the guide and tried to follow as closely as possible. I have Audyssey XT version. I used 6 seat locations as the diagram showed (chose not to use the remaining 2 because they would not have anyone sitting even close to those areas (actually, only the primary 3 seats on the couch will probably be used). from ear level to the center of each speaker is about 3.5 feet from the right and left seating position. All the distances look right. All speakers were 75db (using Radio Shack meter) except front right which was 74 and the sub which was varying 72 to 74 on the test signal from Onkyo). Couch is against back wall.

    Model IWTS-30 SR Specs: Drivers Dual 5 1/4" (135mm) GLH midranges w/Butyl rubber surrounds Dual 1" (25mm) softdome tweeters w/neodymium magnet and ferrofluid cooling Configuration Switchable Dipole or Bipole array Frequency Response 80Hz - 20kHz +/-3dB Sensitivity 87dB, 1 watt, 1 meter Impedance 6 Ohms Crossover point(s) 3500 Hz Recommended power 25-150 Watts RMS

    Subwoofer: yes Front Full Band (These are Focal 918's) Center 80 Hz (THX) (Speakercraft THX, pointed down at the primary listener location from above the TV) Surround 150 Hz LPF of LFE 80 Hz (THX) Double Bass OFF (THX)

     

    Can I manually override the rear crossover settings in Audyssey?

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Michael,

    It's certainly possible that the woofers are working against each other and you are ending up with reduced bass because of that.  You should definitely check the wiring.

    On the other hand, 150 Hz for surrounds is not all the unusual.  I highly recommend not using bipole mode for surrounds.  You will get much better envelopment with dipole mode.

    Also, it's a really bad idea to have the fronts as Full Band.  Audyssey doesn't get to decide this--Onkyo does.  If you have a sub, the MultEQ filters there have 8x more resolution.  But, with the speakers set to Full Band there is NO bass being sent to the sub from those speakers.  So you are missing out on the opportunity for much smoother bass response.

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    Michael James

    Thanks Chris...follow-on questions:

    If the wires were switched from the speaker to the amp, doesn't Audyssey XT pick that up during the setup? (Phase Warning never came up)

    What happens to the bass lossed on a moving surround object when surrounds set to 150Hz? (like the Draco dragon flying around rear right to rear left in Dragonheart)?

    Everything I have read said to use a bipole setting with an in-wall directly behind the couch..why do you think a dipole setting would be better?

    I have a Velodyne DD15 powered sub.  I bought it used and does not have the software and calibration mic that came with it.  It has 2 buttons on the back to raise and lower volume.  I lowered it to what I thought was down around the middle of the volume setting.  I have no other way to tell what filters are on or off.  Am I ok with this or should I still try to get the software from Velodyne? (or does it matter if Audyssey is running the show)

    The sub has an Input section. The top analoge input is a white RCA and the lower is a red RCA input.  The Red says "LFE" next to it.  Right now I am running an RCA from the sub output of the Onkyo to a splitter and feeding both inputs.  Is this right?

    Sub placement: Is 3 inches from front left speaker and 3 inches from the adjacent walls..is that OK?

    Zones used for calibration.  I used 3-1-2 on the couch. And 4-5-6 in front of the couch.

    Should I also run 7-8 right against the wall behind the primary listeneing area?  (there is only 12 inches from the primary listening area to the back wall).

    (My couch is right up against the back wall.  My wife won't let me move it.)

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    Michael James

    Also, when I set my main to a 40Hz crossover instead of Full band, the front stage sounds "thin"..why would that be?

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    Audyssey Labs

    If phase warning never came up then wiring is probably OK.  Doesn't hurt to check anyway.

    There is no bass lost no matter where the crossover is set.  The bass is redirected to the subwoofer.  That's what bass management is designed to do.

    Dipoles have the tweeters in opposite phase and firing away from the listener.  This creates much more enveloping surround than bipoles that have the tweeters in phase.

    The Velodyne may have internal filters set that are interfering with proper measurement and proper bass management.  It matters a lot if they are set to some strange value. 

    You should not use both inputs!  Most likely the LFE input bypasses all the internal processing and so it is preferred.

    Sub placement is fine. Mic placement is fine.  You should take measurements 7 and 8, but not near the wall (too much bas buildup there).  Move them forward about 18".

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    Michael James

    Chris, you are giving me an enormous amount of help.

    1. I am enclosing a picture of the surround speaker.  With the couch against the wall and this particular speaker build, still use it in Dipole mode vs. Bipole?  This are located at each end of the couch and is 3.5 feet above the top of the couch.

    2. Should I use a boom mike stand and put the microphone on the end (flat and pointed toward the ceiling at ear level, all 8 at the same heigth and within the boundaries of the fronts and rears).  Will the boom mike stand itself interfere at all with the measurements?  I was thinking about having the boom mike stretch across the couch to each of the locations.

    3. What can cause the "thin" sound changing the fronts from Full to 40 Hz crossover?

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    Michael James

    Chris, with the inwalls as described above, wouldn't I have a "null" area if I set to Dipole?

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