XT32 / Crossover (new mic results)

Hi, Ok... So I received my brand new microphone (thank you Chris) and things seem to be much better. Highs have been reduced and the overall sound is not as bright as it was previously. I have one question though, when I re-ran auydssey on this occasion, it recognised all my speakers as small (except my fronts) which is bizarre as previously they were all recognised as large (which is what id expect as every single speaker is identical to the other and all are floor standing large speakers)? That aside, the x-over points were set to 40 (fronts) 60 (wides and rears) and 90 (centre) and I was wondering.... As all these speakers are identical in very way, should I raise the x-over for all them to 90 or should I raise them to 80'and leave the centre on 90? Or should I raise the fronts from 40 to 60 to match wides and surrounds, and leave the centre on 90? Is there any reason to use a x-over of 80 (while using xt32) or would I be better using a x-over of 60 which is still higher than where the speakers were defaulted to by the amp? Other than that, the new sound has been improved by replacing the mic (I really appreciate that level of support, it's very endearing) and I would like to say thanks for everything, thanks to your advice and support and the replacement mic, I am once again loving my new 7.1 XT32 setup.
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33 Comments

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    Paddy

    Chris, Your website still doesn't seem to support iPads/Safari as again my perfectly formatted text still seems tl appear as a huge wall of text? I think you need to get the website guys onto that.

    Cheers,

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Seems fine on my iPad 1 and 2 with Safari and iOs 4.x and 5.0

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Small and Large is one of the greatest disservices the industry has brought to the consumer.  It's a completely arbitrary decision.  Also, it has nothing to do with Audyssey.  Our position is clear: if you have a subwoofer you should *never* set any speaker to Large.  By doing so you are saying: "I don't want bass coming from my sub".  Onkyo and most AVR makers use 40 Hz as the decision point and it sounds like your speakers are rolling off near there.  

    Identical speakers can have very different low frequency performance depending on where they are placed.  That's the whole point of measuring!  

    With XT32 there is no added resolution in the sub.  It's very high as it is in the satellite speakers.  So, there is no need to move the xover up higher.  Just make sure no speakers are set to Large.

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    Paddy

    Hmm,

    I'm on an iPad 1 ios4 at the moment and when I "return" it recognises it as I type, but when I hit "save comment" it just displays a wall of text with no formatting? Weird? _

    As for the crossover, I don't quite understand what you mean, are you saying I should leave my x-over where the AVR set it (40hz) Doesnt this mean that my speakers will deal with all the bass down to 40Hz and then anything below that gets sent to my sub?

    Isn't that against what audyssey normally suggest? I thought we were so set speakers to small and x-over to 80hz? If I leave the x-over at 40 won't that essentially be like setting the speakers to "large" as my sub will only come to life when a freq below 40hz is located?

    Paddy._

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    Paddy

    Hey Chris,
    I pressed return 3 times in that post above to create 3 small paragraphs? Weird how it doesn't work for me?

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Not sure what's up with your iPad browser...

    As for xovers, in MultEQ and MultEQ XT systems we recommend moving them up to 80 Hz so that more content is sent to the sub.  That's because the filters in the sub have 8x more resolution and will produce smoother bass.

    For MultEQ XT32 this is no longer necessary.  The sub and satellite resolution is much higher (and equal) so there is no benefit in moving the xover up to a higher frequency.  

    The only thing to make sure is that your speakers are set to Small so that content goes to the sub below the xover frequency.  There is also no harm in moving the xover up to 80 Hz if you wish to do so.

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    Paddy

    I'll do an upgrade to ios5 and see if that helps :)

    Thanks Chris, so either way should make no real world difference... If my speakers are only rated down to 55hz and the AVR recommended 40hz and 60hz x-over, To get the best sound (least distortion) would you recommend a 60hz x-over or would you raise it to 80Hs? ... Which would (in theory) give me the best quality sound (least distortion etc) for my home cinema? ... Thanks again, and I'll update my iPad and post back and let you know if it works :)

    (My AVR is a Denon 4311ci if that matters)

    Cheers,

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    Paddy

    What I meant to say was... For XT32 users what do audyssey recommend doing when it comes to setting the x-over... Do you suggest taking the AVRs recommended crossover and raising it by 50% or so to account for acoustical distortion and/or headroom for the amp etc or to allow for the crossover to roll down safely below those crossover points etc....

    Thanks Again,

    Paddy.

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    I don't think there will be any real difference between 60 Hz and 80 Hz.  Certainly no issue with distortion in either case. For XT32 we recommend leaving the crossover as found in the measurements, unless this results in your AVR setting the speakers to Large

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    Paddy

    Cool...

    That's somewhat confusing for me though, as the AVR set my x-over to 40hz for my fronts, but they are only rated down to 55hz?. I then raised the x-over to 80Hz (as per previous discussions) and audyssey recommendations as I was unaware that xt32 users were to follow different recommendations... Is there a setup guide specifically for xt32 users that explain what best practice is for setting it up?

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    Paddy

    Hey Chris... Just been reading another thread in here (and getting more confused by the second) but it states that Audyssey sets the X-Over of the speakers by measuring rolloff... If so, I'm confused at the results. -----

    My speakers are only rated down to 55hz, 4 of them are located in corners (sur/wide) 2 are located not near Walls (fronts) ... Now here is the strange part, the speakers that ARE located in the corners of the room were given a x-over of 60hz, while the fronts that are NOT located in corners were given a x-over of 40hz (which is strange because usually speakers located in corners have more bass and therefore lower x-over, additionally how can the fronts have a 40hz x-over when they are only rated only down to 55hz?). -----

    My sub is rated to 35hz-110hz and all my speakers are the same make/model etc and are rated 55hz-20,000hz. What would your recommendation be if you had these results (Audyssey x-over of 40hz) and this particular spec of speakers etc... They are Wharfdale Diamond 10 Series Speakers and Subs. -----

    Any advice you can offer is appreciated.

    Paddy.

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    The speaker roll off in the specs does not know about where you have placed the speakers or what your room is doing.  Placing speakers near the wall typically extends their low frequency roll off.  Corners are more tricky.  It's impossible to predict without measurement and that's why we have MultEQ.  It's telling us exactly what the roll off is for each speaker based on where it's currently placed.  The recommendation is to leave everything as MultEQ found during the measurements.

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    Paddy

    Hey Chris, Cheers for that. It's all rather confusing as I've been basing my setup on all the audyssey instructions that usually advise to, run multi EQ and then switch everything to 80hz/Small. -----

    As the differences for the XT32 setup seems to be the polar opposite of the other multieq setup guide, could we have a best practice guide for XT32 in the forum as the first I am hearing of this is now and Im sure many other people will be unaware of this. ----- All indications for setting up an audyssey based avr on here point to setting the x-over to 80hz and speakers to small.

    ----- I'll re run multieq and see how it goes and will leave everything as found. My appologies for the mis-understanding but it would seem the is very little info on XT32 setup as pretty much all info on here/avs/home cinema/AVforums etc all state that Audyssey recommends 80hz/small. ----- to now be told that the opposite is now in fact true did/has confused me slightly, but I now understand.-----

    So, overall I should run the setup from scratch, leave the x-over and all other settings as default (except set speakers to small). ----- will changing these x-overs have caused me any issues? Can I just reset them with out issue? Or is best practice to re-run the setup. ----- thanks in advance. Paddy.----- I know this must seem mundane or trivial for you or perhaps you are sick of repeating your self many times to many users on this forum, but I just want to say thank you for taking the time to explain your technology to me and how to get the best from it. If you have a user guide for XT32 or papers I could read to help me understand further without harassing you, I'd sincerely appreciate it. Thanks again, Paddy.

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Paddy, no need to run again.  Just put the xovers back to where MultEQ found them.  We really don't want to keep putting out user guides.  The idea is to run the software by following the instructions on the screen and then saving the results.  The only change we recommend is to set speakers to Small if the AVR has decided to set them to Large (assuming, of course, that you have a subwoofer in the system).

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    Paddy

    Fantastic clarification, thank you very much Chris. ----- I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to help and to explain this to me. Again i'm sorry if you feel like your banging you head against a brick wall or telling people over and over again, but all I can say to help illevate Thst feeling Is... Your help and support is very much appreciated.

    Thanks again,

    Paddy~

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    No problem Paddy.  Hopefully this will get your system sounding great!

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    Paddy

    Here's hoping :) ----- I'll do a full reconfig and follow your instructions to the letter ----- I also appreciate the stuff you sent to my address as it has improved the sound dramatically ----- additionally the Dynamic volume works incredibly for watching movies at night, it's fantastic and worked wonders with inception while our newborn slept next to us in his Moses basket :) ----- Numerous people over at AVS have said that it's best to raise the XO to 80hz with XT32 but call me crazy, I think I'll trust you on this one :) ---- thanks again for all your guidance, it's sincerely appreciated and my 7.1 home cinema with my 4311Ci is coming along wonders. Best regards. Paddy.

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    Paddy

    Hey Chris ----- if you get the time could you please advise me if there is any additional benefits in raising the XO from the recommended XT32 settings up to 80hz and if/why I should or should not do it? ----- Will raising the XO from the XT32 recommended settings up to 80hz in my system benefit/hinder me in anyway/shape or form? ----- Strange question, I know (considering all you have already said) however it seems there are 2 views on this topic and I'd like concrete verification that I should/or should not change my XO and what benefits or hindrances this may cause for me if I do/do not.

    Thanks again,
    Paddy~

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    The only potential benefit is that you are giving your AVR more amplifier headroom by offloading more low frequency duties to the amp in the subwoofer.  But, I don't expect this to be a big deal considering the power available in the AVR amps.

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    Paddy

    Thanks Chris, So there is only a "potential" benefit, however for me and my setup there is no big deal in power (headroom) or benefit in doing so, as i am using a 4311ci with enough power to run my small home cinema.

    That's good enough for me :)
    Thanks again Chris, you've got the patience of a saint!

    ----- I'm sticking with your guide, and I don't think I'll listen to the "experienced" users of the other forums. If I have an audyssey related issue I'll come here :)

    Right, I'm off to watch a movie and enjoy my HT! I've got people here at the moment believe it or not, there awaiting a demo of our new family home cinema room :)

    Happy Bonfire Night and thanks for everything :)

    Paddy~

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    pepar

    Any potential benefit from the sub(s) having a better chance of being placed for the smoothest response whereas mains are placed for imaging and to accompany an .. image?

     

    Jeff

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Maybe... A higher xover would tend to make the subs more localizable (although 80 Hz is generally not an issue).  So, one could argue that a lower xover makes the subs less localizable and thus easier to place.  But, we may be splitting hairs here...

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    pepar

    One more hypothetical scenario - though in my system it was real - 80Hz is recommended for L&R while CC was 60Hz.  With my thinking being that it is desirable to have consistent crossovers for LCR, I bumped CC to 80Hz.  Good choice on my part?

     

    Jeff

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    As long as the xover is below the point of localization, I don't think there would be a huge audible difference in having all three the same.  It would really depend on whether the sub-to-speaker blend was affected and so that's why it's best to use the value recommended by MultEQ Pro.  It checks the blend for you for each speaker.

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    pepar

    I was thinking about pans across the front being more consistent with the same x-over points.

    Jeff

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    Hmm.. I don't think the low octave is panning, right?  It's the higher frequencies that are involved in the pan.

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    Paddy

    Thanks again Chris, this is a great reference for other XT32 users and I think other companies could learn from your willingness to truly support your technology and your customers. I'm massively impressed ----- I've now set my XT32 to the defaults that it found (as recommended) and have just finished a movie with friends ----- All I can say is it sounds fantastic to me! ---- I have no complaints what so ever, dynamic EQ is fantastic for below reference listening (amazing what sounds it brings out of my speakers) Bass sounded very controlled and with the lower XO I will say it sounded fuller? Perhaps that is just psychosomatic, but it felt fuller and richer which was very nice indeed ----- music in the film sounded great and voices were delt with superbly and overall I think with the DENON 4311ci and the Audyssey software my home cinema is going to get used now rather than constantly tinkered with. ----- on a side not Chris, that new mic did resolve my DSX issue as we popped on "500 days of summer" before the main movie and watched the intro again and the robotic sound was no longer present. Amazing! Thanks again for everything and ill blast off a firework in your honour tomorrow at our bonfire party :) Have a great weekend and thanks for all your support over the last few weeks. Truly appreciated!

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    pepar

    Well, I don't know for certain, but how would that be done ... where the higher frequencies are panned, but not the lower?

    In the cave escape sequence in Iron Man with the assistant firing the automatic weapon certainly sounds like the gun's sound as a whole pans from right surround, onto the screen to the right channel and then across the screen to the left channel.  The weapon has a sharp percussive report and extends down to sub frequencies, and is one of my go-to scenes to test surround/front and sub/mains integration.

    I would think that, other than LFE content, the entire gun sound pans. 

    Jeff

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    Chris Kyriakakis

    I guess what I meant was that you wouldn't perceive the lowest octave as moving in the pan so it won't matter.  We are talking about 20 Hz difference in the CC.  Maybe difficult to notice the difference, but why not try it both ways and report back?  It's possible that there are differences with the right content.

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    pepar

    Yep, hairs. :)

     

    Jeff

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