Dynamic EQ and Reference Level

What is Dynamic EQ and reference level?

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    Adam Brown

    Also with Dynamic EQ still on, adjusting the reference level to 10db removes the distortion.

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Adam,

    Dynamic EQ only starts boosting as you turn the master volume down.  So, the overall level is lower than reference when Dynamic EQ boosts.  Are you sure this rumble is not coming from the port hole of the sub?  When bass levels are increased, the port can "chuff" because of the air being forced through it at high speeds.  In effect, what you are doing is reducing the bass content and that reduces the air coming from the port.  You could try stuffing it with some foam (or even a pair of socks!) and see if the problem gets any better.

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    Adam Brown

    Thanks for the quick response!

     

    Amazingly the socks idea seems to work! Does this mean I have a faulty sub? I don't particularly like the idea of having socks stuffed in the port hole!

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    Audyssey Labs

    You don't have a faulty sub.  You have a sub that is too small for the space it is trying to drive.  For example, if the room is connected through an opening to another room the sub is trying to drive the entire space and to do so it is pushing more air than it was designed to.  There's nothing wrong with socks--they are clean right?  They're just there to break up the air flow and reduce the chuffing.  The only real solution is a bigger (or a second) sub.

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    Ken Taylor

    Hi Chris
    I just setup my son's Denon AVR 1912 and discovered the loudness correction feature you provide... Dynamic EQ. I have a Denon 2808 in the room we watch movies and would like to update the 2808 with this feature. Is there any chance that there is a way to update the receiver with Dynamic Volume?

    I have a second question about the coupling of Audyssey with Dynamic EQ. If we turn off Audyssey it appears that Dynamic EQ is also turned off such that if we then turn on Audyssey EQ remains off. This makes it difficult to quickly compare with Audyssey by simply turning it on and off. Is there a quick way to compare without getting Bass changes due to the state of the Dynamic EQ switch?

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Ken,

    Sadly there is no way for older units to be upgraded.  This has happened in some cases, but it has to be initiated by the manufacturer.  

    Dynamic EQ needs to start from a reference response and level so it's important to first run MultEQ to achieve this.  Dynamic EQ on its own doesn't make much sense because it would  not be starting from a known reference.

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    Rickard L

    Hi Chris,

    When the master volume is turned down, Dynamic EQ adjusts (increases) the level of the surround speakers (channels) based what the mixers did in your experiments, right? That means that Dynamic EQ behaves differently depending on which speaker channel it is adjusting? Is there also a difference how Dynamic EQ treats Front Left/Right Channels vs the Center Channel?

     

    Thanks,

    Rickard

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Rickard,

    The front three channels are treated equally.  There is no level adjustment for them.  Only a frequency response adjustment to match human loudness perception at different listening volumes.

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    Rickard L

    Hi Chris,

    My understanding of trims has been that they are part of the overall volume construct so the effective volume is the trim level + the master volume level. And that Dynamic EQ "knows" if you manually change the trim level of a speaker and will adjust accordingly. Here are two quotes which I based that understanding on:

    "Changes in the trims are passed to Dynamic EQ so that it remains calibrated. "

    "The trim values are passed to Dynamic EQ. So, if you change them it will "know". It will think you have turned down the master volume and make the same adjustment. "

    Is that correct?

    If so, assume the trim level of the sub was set 0dB by Audyssey and the master volume at -20dB, would setting the subs trim to +6dB produce the same response from Dynamic EQ as leaving the subs trim at 0dB but raising the master volume to -14?

    Is there a difference how different AVRs handles this?

     

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Rickard,

    Your note made me go back to our development group and ask.  It turns out that the AVR makers decided not to use this option in Dynamic EQ!  I was unaware of this until now... The code allows for Dynamic EQ to look at the manual changes to the trim settings, but apparently the AVR makers decided not to use that.  So, if you don't use the reference trims that MultEQ recommends you are actually intentionally biasing Dynamic EQ.  Their thinking was that this is a way for users to apply their own preference.  Sorry about the confusion I many have caused by my "pure" thinking...

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    Rickard L

    Ah, ok... Well, your answer certainly clears up some confusion. Thanks for investigating!

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    Scott staten

    Hi criss
    Please could I have some advise.I'm setting up my new onkyo tx-nr609 tomorrow and am confused by all the settings.I have 7.1 with mission speakers and Polk sub usual settings 60hz crossover fronts 100 hz centre and 80 hz rear and surrounds.I only watch movies on it in either 5.1 or 7.1 blu ray so what settings would be best I've heard turn sub up to 120hz and set dynamic eq and thx loud plus to on.would these settings really be the best or am I missing something.
    Many thanx
    Scott

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Scott,

    The whole point of calibrating with Audyssey is to let it measure your room and your system and set the right parameters and room correction filters.  There are controls on most subs that interfere with proper measurement and bass management so here are some instructions on how to set them: http://ask.audyssey.com/forums/84181/entries/76175.html

    You have to choose between Audyssey Dynamic EQ and Loudness Plus.  Can't have both at the same time.  I will let you listen and decide.

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    Markus

    Hi Chris,

     

    you wrote "Content such as pop/rock music that is mixed at higher than film reference levels needs less bass boost. "

    Wouldn't a recording that was mixed at high levels need more loudness compensation than a recording that was mixed at lower levels when both are reduced to the same loudness level with the master volume control?

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Markus,

    Remember that Dynamic EQ is referenced to film level.  A recording mixed at higher-than-film levels will need less compensation at a given volume control setting because it will be perceived "louder" than a film mix at the same volume control setting.  So the required adjustment of the low and high frequency balance is less for a louder recording.

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    Markus

    But the volume control setting wouldn't be the same for the high-level-mix and the low-level-mix if we adjust them to have the same loudness. The high-level-mix would need to be turned down more hence it would need more compensation, no?

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    Audyssey Labs

    That's why we have the Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset.  The high level mix will be turned down more, but at that low master volume setting it would receive "too much" adjustment if Dynamic EQ thinks it was mixed at film reference.  

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    Markus

    If something is mixed on a system with reference level 10dB higher than movie reference that mix will play 10dB softer when played back on a system that is calibrated to movie reference. In order to restore spectral balance Dynamic EQ would need to boost bass and highs but changing Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset does the opposite, it applies less boost. This makes me think it assumes music is mixed at lower reference levels and not at higher reference levels than movies?

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    Audyssey Labs

    It's a little more complicated than that.  The Dynamic EQ loudness adjustment also depends on the dynamic range in the content.  A loud hip hop song, for example, has practically no variation between the softest and loudest content.  It's all compressed to sound as loud as possible.  This is not the case for film content that has a very wide dynamic range.  So, turning the master volume down to –10 dB on the AVR would make Dynamic EQ apply correction to the hip hop song that is not needed.  It's still much louder (perceptually) than film content even at that volume setting.

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    Rickard L

    Hi,

    regarding the perceived loudness of sources from behind that falls off faster than those from the front; is there a good way to verify that the levels are indeed correctly set? Let's say I got a hearing deficiency, hears slightly less at right ear, and I would like to adjust that to my own preference but keeping the intent of Reference: for me it would be Reference but not for anybody else with perfect hearing. I was thinking of Joe Kane's DVD Digital Video Essential which has test signals, Chptr 8 band limited pink noise, coming half from the front right and half from the surround right, should that place a virtual speaker between the two speakers? At least the accompyning video gives that impression. But the main question is: Could I use that to balance the right surround trim with Dynamic EQ enabled? To me it sounds like it would give me equal perceived loudness of the front right and right surround.

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    Markus

    Hi Chris,

    You wrote"It's a little more complicated than that.  The Dynamic EQ loudness adjustment also depends on the dynamic range in the content.  A loud hip hop song, for example, has practically no variation between the softest and loudest content.  It's all compressed to sound as loud as possible.  This is not the case for film content that has a very wide dynamic range.  So, turning the master volume down to –10 dB on the AVR would make Dynamic EQ apply correction to the hip hop song that is not needed.  It's still much louder (perceptually) than film content even at that volume setting."

    Even if that mixed-at-high-level-HipHop-song is compressed to death, it would need MORE bass boost when played back at movie reference. In my mind the explanation you gave would make sense when that HipHop song was mixed and mastered at lower levels than movie reference:

    The song already contains a lot of bass (because of the low level mixing/mastering) hence reducing the master volume of a movie reference calibrated system will lead to bloated bass which is balanced by the bass reducing properties of Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset.

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    Audyssey Labs

    @Rickard: Unfortunately imaging along the sides does not work the same way as the front.  It is impossible to create a perfect phantom image in the middle between the front Right and Right Surround speaker.  The timing cues used for phantom imaging only work correctly for images between the two front speakers.  Equal levels between Right and Right Surround will give a phantom image closer to the front rather than the middle.  You are probably better off just setting the surround level "by ear" if you feel you need an adjustment.

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    Audyssey Labs

    @Markus: you are still thinking of Dynamic EQ as a fixed adjustment at every volume setting.  It consists of two parts: one is a fixed adjustment based on the volume control setting and the second is an adjustment based on the real-time estimation of loudness perception in the content.  It is calibrated for film standards because those are known: (1) reference mix level and (2) dynamic range of content.  In the case of the loud (because of compression) song at –10 dB master volume Dynamic EQ will apply the fixed offset to boost the bass but its estimation of content loudness will be off.  It's not just the bass that is loud in the song.  The entire song is mixed to be perceived loud by using compression.  So, if you turn down the volume Dynamic EQ will still be looking at the content itself and think that it's too loud.  That's what we have to tell it to do less in this case.

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    Markus

    That's understood. What I don't understand is why Dynamic EQ boosts the bass even more when it "thinks" that the song is already very loud. Dynamic EQ should boost more the softer a sound is, not the other way around, no? 

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    Audyssey Labs

    Because it thinks (internal setting) that the content was mixed at film reference.  It has no way of knowing that the mix level was higher unless you tell it.

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    Markus

    Understood but if it "thinks" that way the perceptual result should not be bloated bass but missing bass, no? My thinking is that music content is mixed at LOWER levels than film and this causes the bloated bass we get without the Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset.

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    Markus

    Chris, maybe we're just talking past each other. When your write "mixed at higher than film reference levels" are you talking about recorded level or about monitoring level? I'm talking about monitoring level.

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    Audyssey Labs

    I am talking about both.  The average listening level in the studio can be above 100 dB for hip hop.  It's unbelievably loud.  In addition to that, the peak-to-average difference in a hip hop song is minimal (maybe non-existent) because of the massive dynamic range compression used.  So, the perceived loudness of the song will be much higher than content like movies that has a much wider variation between soft and loud.  That means that when you set to the volume to a given value on your AVR, the hip hop song will be receiving more correction than it needs.  That's why it needs an offset.

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    Markus

    How much equal-loudness compensation is necessary in this "100 dB for hip hop" example when the master volume control of a movie reference calibrated system is at 0? I would think probably none because that is the kind of monitoring level I would expect from a movie reference calibrated monitoring system when the content has an extremely low crest factor.

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    Sergey

    Why after options Audyssey recession on high frequencies if to compare with Pure Audio? It would not be desirable them to lose!

    Somewhere read that the Mode of listening THX with switched off Re-EQ allows to choose curves Audyssey or Audyssey Flat without a blockage of high frequencies! Receiver ONKUO 608, front Fokal 714 +центр+сабвуфер I can't choose modes of listening THX as I use only front.Re-EQ isn't involved. The crossover cut has put on 80Hz (THX) though Audyssey has defined them 40Hz. Before adjustment 2EQ has lowered high on-2db, and after has added to 0. A sound выравнился. Before adjustment 2EQ - what to do? (To put on 80Hz, to disconnect Dynamic EQ, to disconnect Audyssey, wanted that the sound was without a blockage of high frequencies)?

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