Subwoofer setup and MultEQ

Many powered subwoofers have controls that are set manually.  It's important to follow some simple guidelines to avoid having these controls interfere with proper subwoofer calibration and integration with the satellite speakers.

  1. If the subwoofer provides a direct input (sometimes called LFE input) then it should always be used.  That input bypasses the filters in the subwoofer and allows the bass management system in the AV Receiver to operate properly
  2. If there is no direct input, then the lowpass filter knob on the subwoofer should be permanently set to the highest frequency it allows.  That way it will not interfere with the MultEQ measurements and bass management
  3. The level control on the subwoofer is often set too high.  This can cause the AV Receiver to run out of level correction range when MultEQ tries to set the subwoofer to reference level.  Set the subwoofer level control to the midpoint.  If MultEQ reports high negative trims (e.g., –12 dB) for the subwoofer, then you should turn the level control further down and run MultEQ again
  4. If there is a Phase control on the sub it should be set to 0°

If you have a subwoofer with room EQ, then you should run that first in the subwoofer and then run MultEQ in the AVR

If you have an external subwoofer processor (such as the SVS AS-EQ1 or the Audyssey Sub Equalizer) you should run the calibration in that processor first and then run MultEQ in your AVR

If you have two subwoofers, there are some additional steps to take:
  1. Place them at equal distances from the main listening position
  2. Set the level controls on the back so they both play at the same level
  3. Connect a y-cord to the sub out of the AVR and then connect to both subs
  4. Turn off processing in the subs as it will not be able to give you the same resolution that you will get from MultEQ (thousands of points vs. a few parametric bands)
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399 Comments

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    Santo Budi

    Thanks Chris.

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    Marcus Freese

    Hello Chris,

    thank you for your previous feedback a while ago.

    Regarding my -12db Sub problem in my 5.2 system (fronts with integrated active subs): Since you stated that the low freq sound from the subs isn't directional I ended up just using one Sub. My initial thought was, that i would benefit from symmetrical sub-sound. The measurements still give me -12db with one sub (i am already at the lowest volume on the sub) but it sounds pretty good. (btw: Why is the value limited to -12db?)

    Another question: My surround speakers seem to be too loud in comparison to the front/center sound. I did the initial measurement exactly from my primary watch position at ear height. If i manually lower the surrounds a few db, would this mess up the MultiEQ measurements? If thats the case, whats the best way to go?

    Thanks again,

    Marcus 

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Marcus,

    The amount of level adjustment is based on the internal digital gain structure of the AVR and is part of the overall design.  

    It's fine to lower the level of the surrounds to match your preference.  It has no effect on MultEQ.

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    Adam Rayner

    Hi Chris

    Having set my Denon 2311 up to a previous blog of yours (small vs large) wow what a different cleaner sound,my question is that i have just added a velodyne cht-q 10 sub and i have connected to the LFE input on the sub  as your blog suggests but velodyne show conecting to the LFE and line input using a Y conector thats included for "more signal".

    As i understand the LFE input allows base management purely from the receiver and the line level input goes through the subs processor ,so why would velodyne say both?

    Adam

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Adam,

    I have always been puzzled by this recommendation.  I see no benefit or drawback. Perhaps you will get the sub to play a little louder, but that can easily be accomplished via the level control.  In this case, passing the signal through the direct input (LFE) and the filtered input seems odd to me.

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    Adam Rayner

    Thanks Chris for your quick reply ,i have it in the LFE at the moment and it sounds good.I might try both as a test another day when i have some time .

    thanks again

    Adam

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    Charleskidder

    I have a Denon 4311 receiver. I have 2 Emotiva Ultra 12 subs. 12" sealed front firing. I am adding a third sub. A Epik Legend. Dual 12" sealed, firing on both sides. The reason is the Emotiva's really start to drop off at around 30Hz, while the Legend won't drop off until about 20Hz. I want the lower FR.

    Anyway, I'm trying to figure out the best way to setup the 3 subs. What I'll do is put the 2 Emotiva's on sub 1 output with a Y connector and the legend on sub 2. The question I have is how to best setup the 2 Emotiva's. I know ideally they should be equidistant from the primary listening spot. The only way for me to do this is to stack them in the left front corner. The counter argument is that subs should be spread out to smooth the overall response in the room. If I place them seperately, I can't place them equidistant from the primary listening spot. I would place one in the left front corner and the other about 5' away along the left wall. The new Legend sub would be in the right front corner. I sit about 12 feet from the front wall in the center of a 16' wide room.

    If I have to place 2 subs not equidistant on a single channel, what do you suggest I do? I was thinking I could adjust the phase of the closer sub so as to effectively make is act as it's the same distance as the further away sub. Then run Audyssey.

    Do you suggest I stack the 2 subs or should I seperate them and adjust the phase? The subs have a variable phase setting from 0 to 180 degrees.

    Any response is appreciated.

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Charles,

    If the subs can't be equidistant I wouldn't recommend using the phase knob.  It often does more harm than good because it only changes the phase at one frequency.  A proper phase control would need to apply different delays at different frequencies, but that is not something that can easily be done with a simple analog knob.

    So, I would simply set up the subs where they need to be and measure them together as "one".  Any peaks or dips due to phase issues will try to be corrected by the filters that MultEQ creates.

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    Charleskidder

    Thanks for the response. What I did was turn on the Audyssey setup and had the volume above 75db so I would get the warning and then could adjust the phase and see how the db level changed. I set the phase at the point where the Db level was highest as I assume that was the point where it was most in phase. I then turned down the gain and ran the audyssey setup. It sounds good.

    I know phase isn't exactly the same as distance since it adjusts as a pct of a wavelength which varies with frequency, but adjusting it does seem to help sometimes.

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    Matthew Roy Nakata

    Question about the center channel. My center is larger than the other front and surrounds speakers. Now I turned the four other speakers to 40hz. Does the center get changed to what the calibration was turned at which would be 120hz or match it to 40hz like the others. Does it matter?

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    Audyssey Labs

    What did MultEQ find for the center channel roll off?

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    Matthew Roy Nakata

    120z

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    Audyssey Labs

    In that case there is little or no benefit in setting a lower crossover.  Audyssey will not apply correction below the frequency it found to be the roll off.

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    Matthew Roy Nakata

    I'm sorry Chris I am confused.

    This is what audysse chose
    Front 120
    Center 120
    Surround 90
    Back then I think you said change all the speakers to 40hz

    I did so and it sounds good.

    Now I was just wondering about the center channel because it was a larger speaker. So I was wondering if it would make any difference leaving what audysse chose or back to 40 hz

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    Alex

    Chris...strange things happening...

    I both 2 identic Chasis and built my own sub,Amp Power is 120 Watts RMS for Both,one each Sub, same Volume,same Case.

    It`s a 45 Liter Case tuned to 32hz for each Sub.

     

    I calibrated Audyssey so that it setss both to 0db,by just powering on one after each other, and now when I try to calibrate both Subs with Power-On setting Adyssey just adds +0,5db.

     

    Both Subs are standing in front,both near the wall, it doesn`t madder if I have equal distance to each sub from the measure point or different distance (of course it should be identic distance,but I tried differing distances in the meantime).

    I`d have expected somehow -3db to -6db as one Sub is measured with 0db,so the second should add 3-6 db gain,which should be reduced by audyssey to see a reduction around -3db in the result,but not additional +0,5db.

     

    Reciever is a Denon 3312, Sub Chassis is an Mivoc AWM124 with an Mivoc AM120 Amp Module with peaking 3db from 32-25hz and a subsonic at 20hz.

    Crossover on Sub is set to 240hz,whil the Crossover in the Denon is set to 80/90hz (I´m still trying which sounds better for me..)

     

    But these curious Sub Values.....ah yes I used a Tripod while measuring.

     

    Will do some CARMA Measuring this evening...possibly..what I don`t realy belive, I have a phase twist in one sub,that would be a possible reason.

     

    Any other Ideas,what could be going on?

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    Alex

    Matthew. I think Chris would never suggest setting "small" speakers or any Speaker to 40hz,as this would bypass Bass Management and let the sub only be responsible for everything below 40hz, while Audyseey uses much more filtering for the Sub Channel.

    You should set all Center and Satellites not to more than 80/90 hz,if the are realy small,like Bose Accustimas Series,better 120hz,everything below will be sent to the Sub.

    For Example...Audyssey sets my Metas XT 701 to 40hz in Small,the Center also (Metas XT 31) and the Teufel Dipole Rears to 80-110hz depending on measuring, but? I`m correcting to 80 fpr Fronts,80 for Center and not less than 90 for Rears, everything below will get to the Sub and this gives nice Movie Sound...in Music I just use stereo and fronts in Fullrange

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    Matthew Roy Nakata

    Alex I have the pro cinema 600 from definitive technologies. Would that help me decide ?

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    Alex

    Well,just checked the Manufacurer Site..they mention a freq range from 22-33khz,well,these small plastic or even if they are wooden,satellites never will go deeper than 100-120hz. Bass needs Volume and excursion of the chassis,both is notprodided by such a small system.

     

    But it´s ok for small rooms by setting center and satellites to 120 or even 150 and let the sub do the rest.

    You should try 100-150hz for the Sat`s I think.

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    HT

    Hi Chris,

    I just bought the Klipsch RW-12D sub and need to rerun my calibration.  This is TX-SR805 receiver.  I've set my speakers to small (or 80Hz), set my sub crossover (in the AVR) to 120Hz and disabled double bass as you suggested.

     

    Now on this new sub there's also a crossover setting.  Should I change it to 120Hz (currently at 80Hz)? 

     

    Also the bass mode is "Punch", "Depth", and "Flat".  Which mode would you recommend to set to when running Audyssey?  I usually use Depth for movies and Punch for music.

     

    Thanks in advance

    HT

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    Audyssey Labs

    Matthew, you should never change the crossover to a value lower than what Audyssey found.  It servers no purpose.  If the measurement found the rolloff to be at 120 Hz then there is little content coming from the speaker below that frequency.  Audyssey will not apply correction below that frequency anyway.

    I may have recommended 40 Hz for someone whose speakers were set to Large.  That decision happens at 40 Hz so perhaps they were just on the border.  Setting them as Small with a 40 Hz in that case made sense because the speakers actually extended down to that frequency.

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    Alex

    Chris, could you give me a hint regarding my Problem some Posts above?

    I did some CARMA Measurements yesterday, result is, each of both Subs measured in direct mode with crossover to 120hz they are losing Gain in different frequencies, but while measuring both, they help each other and the result is quiet linear.

     

    Now I calibrated Audyssey again, it took out the low frequencies.

     

    What I start believing, while one sub has a boom bass, the other seems to lose gain in the same range, now Audyssey recognizes the booming Bass,reduces it,while also reducing the gain losing one of course. With the effect they can`t help each other anymore.

    Ill do a carme measurement with active Audyssey in some minuets and post the result, IF I guess right Ill see two extreme reduced gains about -10/15db.

     

  • 0
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    Alex

    Chris,

    funny, when I measure the Audyssey Result I see -10/13db for 70-100hz,while when I measure direct Mode, set the Crossover to 100 Hz I see quiet Linear frequency from 50-100 hz just chaning around 2-3db.

    When I measure each Sub on it`s own, it looks fine.

     

    I start thinking if it can be a phase change in one sub ( they are self bulit) and it seems so,after tuning the phase by 180° on one Sub everything is much finer.

     

    Churious, I´ve had fine Bass in Direct Mode but no Bass with Audyssey.

     

     

     

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Alex,

    I believe you are seeing the effect of the phase of the crossover filter applied by the AVR.  In Direct mode there is usually no crossover filter applied.  To really see what's going on you have to measure in multiple spots (the same ones used for the Audyssey measurement) and then average them.  It's not really useful to judge anything by a single mic measurement.

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    Alex

    Hi Chris,

    I´m offered the possibility to set the crossover and small fronts in stereo direct mode,I experimented from 100-120hz, in 5.1 my crossover is 80-100hz,depends a bit what the movie is.

     

    I´m only focusing on the range 20-100hz in my measurements and compare the main position between direct 2.1 and Audyssey Dolby PL2,the other positions are only 60-70cm away with same height.

     

    I guess the cabling was wrong, I switched it now, as I saw a more paralell signal compared to the other sub while twisting the phase on one via switch first.

     

    Anyway I´ll have to go back to create one last sub-case which has a lower tuning than 32hz, I`m missing a bit deeper bass gain around 25hz.

     

     

  • 0
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    Tommy Stranack

    Chris,

    I am sooooo glad I found this forum.

    I have had the following setup for the last 4 years and have never really been happy with the bass management.

    Denon AVR3808ci

    Monitor Audio Radius 90 sats

    Monitor Audio Radius 180 centre

    Rel T1 sub

    I set the sub up as per Rel's instructions, i.e high level input, front speakers set to large.

    As I said, I have never been happy with the sound from the sub. It was either too boomy or not enough bass. I have constantly "fiddled" with all the settings but nothing sounded "just right. Yes 4 years of this!!!!!

    I then found this forum so I thought "what the hell. Lets try setting the sub up the way you recommend. So I turned down the high level input, turned the low pass filter all the way up, turned the gain up to half way and ran Audyssey. Initially the trim level of the sub was -12db so I turned down the sub to 1/4 volume and ran Audyssey again. WOW is all I can say. The bass is now tamed, refined and present in everything from movies to music. The sound is so full all the way from the highs, through the middle and down to the lows. I am now so pleased with the results. It sounds like a completely different system all together.

    Reason for my post.......to say thank you for all the help this forum has provided. I wished I had found this 4 years ago!!!!!

    So to all those with Rel subs......throw away the instructions that came with the sub and follow the instructions here. You will then find the Rel sub really does sound fantastic.

     

    Thanks again.

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Tommy,

    Thanks for posting! We love to hear these stories.  I hope you enjoy your system.

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    Chris Jo

    Hi Chris

    I am using a Marantz AV8801 and running Audyssey XT32 and having an unusual issue.  I noticed that it sets my subwoofer too low.  Initially, during the Audyssey setup process,  it kept saying my subs gain was too high so I lowered the volume until it stopped bringing up that message.  It went ahead and did all the measurements.  It set the sub at -5.5.  When running the noise level test, all of the speaker are approximately 75db, except the subwoofer which is at 63db.  I tried running the setup with higher volume setting on the subwoofer and skipped the message which warned the gain was too high, and after this setup, same issue, the subwoofer was set at about 63-64db.  Am I doing something incorrectly during the setup procedure?

     

    Thank you

     

    Chris 

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    Audyssey Labs

    Hi Chris,

    It's inaccurate to measure the subwoofer level with an SPL meter.  MultEQ uses a spectral method that produces much more accurate level measurements.  I don't think you are doing anything incorrectly.

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    Chris Jo

    Hi Chris

    I appreciate the quick answer and clarification.  I have the XTZ measurement software and I think I can measure the subwoofer level so I will try that.  The output seems practically non existent as Audyssey has set it up so I'll play around with it.  I may try rerunning Audyssey again.  

     

    Thank you.

  • 0
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    Audyssey Labs

    Make sure your speakers are not set to Large.  If they are, then the output of the sub will be non existent for those speakers.

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